Were Egyptians black or white?

[MagisterCultuum]

^

What movie is that with Eddie Murphy (Is that Eddie Murphy)? I would of never imagined him in such a role.

It certainly looks like Eddie Murphy to me.

Googling "Eddie Murphy Ancient Egypt" did lead me to any feature film, but rather the Michael Jackson music video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remember_the_Time

Goggling that confirms it as the source.
http://www.allmichaeljackson.com/musicvideo/rememberthetime.html
Listening reveals that nothing in the song itself is even remotely related to Egypt.

 

[MKGLouisville]

^

What movie is that with Eddie Murphy (Is that Eddie Murphy)? I would of never imagined him in such a role.

Link to video.

According to actual scientific research ased on biological affinity this portral of Kemet for the most part (the pheontypes of the actors and dancers) seems to be pretty accurate, some people just aren't comfortable with the truth

 

[MKGLouisville]

The M2 lineage is mainly found primarily in "eastern", "sub-saharan", and sub-equatorial African groups, those with the highest frequency of the "Broad" trend physiognomy, but found also in notable frequencies in Nubia and Upper Egypt, as indicated by the RFLP TaqI 49a, f variant IV (see Lucotte and Mercier, 2003; Al-Zahery et al. 2003 for equivalencies of markers), which is affiliated with it. The distribution of these markers in other parts of Africa has usually been explained by the "Bantu migrations", but their presence in the Nile Valley in non-Bantu speakers cannot be explained in this way. Their existence is better explained by their being present in populations of the early Holocene Sahara, who in part went on to people the Nile Valley in the mid-Holocene, according to Hassan (1988); this occurred long before the "Bantu migrations", which also do not explain the high frequency of M2 in Senegal, since there are no Bantu speakers there either.

Source: Exploring Northeast African Metric Craniofacial Variation at the Individual Level: A Comparative Study Using Principal Components Analysis American Journal of Human Biology (2004)

Hence Egypt's First Dynastic King;

or the Sphinx;

 

[Berzerker]

It's plausible that they (early Northern Egyptians) could have been "lighter" in hue (there is nothing "white" about any population surrounding Egypt), but then again there are multiple shades of brown throughout tropical Africa. Interestingly enough pre Dynastic lower Egyptians were proven to have limb proportions "signifigantly different" from Near Easterners of the same period who also share the same climate (Kemp 2005). Instead they like Upper Egyptians and Southerly Africans showed adaptation to the Tropics, which sugguest (according to Brace'93) that they had dark skin.

I've seen estimates of ~20,000 years for skin color to change from dark to light, Euros became lighter. Diet can produce fast(er?) changes in body structure but how long do you think it would take for limbs to get shorter after leaving the tropics? We were debating the tallest people a while back and someone said Scandinavians are now the tallest, thats debatable but nevertheless they are among the tallest peoples. Could that be a post glaciation adaption or dietary?

Their existence is better explained by their being present in populations of the early Holocene Sahara, who in part went on to people the Nile Valley in the mid-Holocene, according to Hassan (1988)

I mentioned a theory like that early in the thread and some .... got all upset.

 

[MKGLouisville]

It certainly looks like Eddie Murphy to me.

Googling "Eddie Murphy Ancient Egypt" did lead me to any feature film, but rather the Michael Jackson music video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remember_the_Time

Goggling that confirms it as the source.
http://www.allmichaeljackson.com/musicvideo/rememberthetime.html
Listening reveals that nothing in the song itself is even remotely related to Egypt.

Still I'd say that based on actual research Eddie Murphy and Iman portrayals in this video are far more accurate than;

I mean seriously where is the evidence for the portrayal above. This is a direct contradiction to the mainstream concensus of Egypt's phenotypic appearance. Im just saying before any of you criticize my view of the subject (not saying that you are particularly), ask youselves what scientific evidence have you reviewed about this particular subject OR simply turn back to the previous page and review some of the studies that I've presented. I'm even willing to bet that half of the "naysayers
jaw's dropped when they seen the original sculpture of Egypt's first Dynastic king above (Menes), or the view of the Sphinx rarely on National Geographic showing it's undeniably broad African features.

 

[Berzerker]

Didn't Khufu look like that? All we got from the greatest pyramid builder is a tiny seated figure, but the face was rounded like Menes.

 

[MKGLouisville]

I've seen estimates of ~20,000 years for skin color to change from dark to light, Euros became lighter.

Yeah I've read an article concluding that "white" skin is a relatively new adapatation. If I run across it again I'll post it on here.

Diet can produce fast(er?) changes in body structure but how long do you think it would take for limbs to get shorter after leaving the tropics?

"Body proportions are under strong climatic selection and evince remarkable stability within regional lineages. As such, they offer a viable and robust alternative to cranio-facial data in assessing hypothesised continuity and replacement with the transition to agro-pastoralism in central Europe. Humero-clavicular, brachial and crural indices in a large sample (n=75) of Linienbandkeramik (LBK), Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age specimens from the middle Elbe-Saale-Werra valley (MESV) were compared with Eurasian and African terminal Pleistocene, European Mesolithic and geographically disparate recent human specimens. Mesolithic Europeans display considerable variation in humero-clavicular and brachial indices yet none approach the extreme "hyper-polar" morphology of LBK humans from the MESV. In contrast, Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age peoples display elongated brachial and crural indices reminiscent of terminal Pleistocene and "tropically adapted" recent humans. These marked morphological changes likely reflect exogenous immigration during the terminal Fourth millennium cal BC. Population expansion and diffusion is a function of increased mobility and settlement dispersal concomitant with significant technological and subsistence changes in later Neolithic societies during the late fourth millennium cal BCE."
-- Gallagher et al. "Population continuity, demic diffusion and Neolithic origins in central-southern Germany: the evidence from body proportions." Homo. 2009;60(2):95-126. Epub 2009 Mar 4.

We were debating the tallest people a while back and someone said Scandinavians are now the tallest, thats debatable but nevertheless they are among the tallest peoples. Could that be a post glaciation adaption or dietary?

That Dinka and Northern Euro debate is a very interesting one indeed.

I mentioned a theory like that early in the thread and some .... got all upset.

Gasp...how dare you make such an insinuation, "that's Afrocentric" jk. Some people just need to leave these old Colonial theories (based primarily on racism) about Egypt's origin in the COLONIAL history books and accept that this view is discreddited by modern research.

 

[Holycannoli]

Still I'd say that based on actual research Eddie Murphy and Iman portrayals in this video are far more accurate than

The thing is Eddie Murphy and Imam hardly represent africans from the african continent, but I'd say they're decent likenesses, about as decent as we have in 2010.

I'm even willing to bet that half of the "naysayers
jaw's dropped when they seen the original sculpture of Egypt's first Dynastic king above (Menes), or the view of the Sphinx rarely on National Geographic showing it's undeniably broad African features.[/QUOTE]

There's theories that the Sphinx is a lot older than even ancient egypt, and may have been built by someone else. Not saying it is but it can't really be used as a representation of how egyptians looked.

This whole argument is pointless anyway. It's like arguing what race the Romans were: They were Roman. Egyptians were Egyptian and Romans were Roman, and no people alive today really look like them. Even egyptians in Roman times didn't look like ancient egyptians, like that picture of Tiger Woods I linked to.

We can say they were black all we want, but they weren't except in skin tone alone. They were their own ancient race at the time, which has not existed in it's pure form for millenia now.

 

[civ_king]

I've seen estimates of ~20,000 years for skin color to change from dark to light, Euros became lighter. Diet can produce fast(er?) changes in body structure but how long do you think it would take for limbs to get shorter after leaving the tropics? We were debating the tallest people a while back and someone said Scandinavians are now the tallest, thats debatable but nevertheless they are among the tallest peoples. Could that be a post glaciation adaption or dietary?



I mentioned a theory like that early in the thread and some .... got all upset.

As little as 2,500 years
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100057939

 

[MKGLouisville]

The thing is Eddie Murphy and Imam hardly represent africans from the african continent

What are you talking about Iman is ethnic Somali born model and Eddie Murphy is a descendant of various African populations (African American). They fit well into the range of indigenous Africans, which has the greatest range on indigenous phenotypical difference on Earth (yet the common trait across the board is black skin).

but I'd say they're decent likenesses, about as decent as we have in 2010.

There's theories that the Sphinx is a lot older than even ancient egypt, and may have been built by someone else.

I've heard that theory also. Either way it's further confirmation that the original populations inhabiting the Nile Valley were from inner Africa and not elsewhere.

Not saying it is but it can't really be used as a representation of how egyptians looked.

It is a theory nonetheless and if you don't want to accept that broad featured African sculpture than accept Menes who has an even wider nose than the Sphinx's indicates (from the lack is).

This whole argument is pointless anyway. It's like arguing what race the Romans were: They were Roman. Egyptians were Egyptian and Romans were Roman,

Nubians were Nubian, but they are still labeled "black". The Greeks were Greek, but people still label them as "white" Europeans. The Egyptians were Egyptians and modern scientific evidence confirms that they were originally what we would call "black".

and no people alive today really look like them.

This statement is false;

"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kuhorsehockeyes, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans." (S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33

Even egyptians in Roman times didn't look like ancient egyptians, like that picture of Tiger Woods I linked to.

You are correct the Egyptian depicted in that Greco Roman period of Egyptian history is not what the original ancient Egyptian looked like, this is also confirmed by modern scientific research;

"The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time".--

Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region."

-- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528

We can say they were black all we want, but they weren't except in skin tone alone. They were their own ancient race at the time, which has not existed in it's pure form for millenia now.

Well if you don't want to acknowledge the fact that they would be regarded as "black" in the modern context of the word then that your perogative. They were however no different than other Northeast African populations further South and Southwest of them. In my book and most others that indicates that they were "black".

 

[NovaKart]

Eddie Murphy doesn't resemble anything close to representations of ancient Egyptians that I've seen. I would say Iman does. Couldn't he at least have taken off the mustache.

I don't think it's racism if someone doesn't accept that ancient Egyptians were not black but I think some people would just say it's kind of silly for modern Black Americans to feel some connection with ancient Egypt when it's like Anglo Americans going on about how they're Greek or Russian. Even if there may be some racial affinity I'm not aware of any cultural or genetic connection other than the most broad through racial affinity.

Then you have to see hip-hop artists who have names starting with Lil' or some other phonetically spelled word go on about how they're an extremely accurate portrayal of an ancient Egyptian in some made for TV movie or whatever. Sure they might be a bit more accurate than Joan Collins or Boris Karloff but that's not saying much.

I'm also a bit skeptical of race determination through skeletal remains and DNA. There was some DNA analysis of Tutankhamun that said he was caucasian and another of Cleopatra's sister that said her mother was African (I think that was skeletal) so neither one of those makes sense. I think it's still an inexact science, especially when dealing with ancient people. I'm not saying that I totally discount it but just that I'm a little skeptical.

 

[MKGLouisville]

Eddie Murphy doesn't resemble anything close to representations of ancient Egyptians that I've seen. I would say Iman does. Couldn't he at least have taken off the mustache.

I don't think it's racism if someone doesn't accept that ancient Egyptians were not black but I think some people would just say it's kind of silly for modern Black Americans to feel some connection with ancient Egypt when it's like Anglo Americans going on about how they're Greek or Russian. Even if there may be some racial affinity I'm not aware of any cultural or genetic connection other than the most broad through racial affinity.

When did I ever state that African Americans have a direct connection to ancient Egypt? What i stated based on a range of scientific evidence was that mixed along with fine featured Africans were broad featured Africans who were proven above to be found in substantial numbers during Egypts formation. African Americans are generally the descendants of broad featuref Africans. So Eddie Murphy displaying a broad featured African morphology would fit right in with early Egyptian society (much like Menes) with no questions asked (mustache aside). If Eddie Murphy is not a good representation of the ancient Egyptians then based on scientific researched who would you say does?

I'm also a bit skeptical of race determination through skeletal remains and DNAre was some DNA analysis of Tutankhamun that said he was DNA. There was some DNA analysis of Tutankhamun that said he was caucasian

What DNA analysis stated that Tut was "Caucasian"?

As far as the validity of these numerous skeletal analysis, they are parallel to what recent genetics studies confirm about gene flow and population movement. Suchas as the spread of M78 from the Horn where it originated and on up the Nile. All of these lines of evidence point to Egypt's origins coming from the South and not anywhere else.

I think it's still an inexact science, especially when dealing with ancient people. I'm not sng that I totally discount it but just that I'm a little skeptical.

Well that's when you must consider other lines of evidence, suchas linguistic or cultural. The scholarly conclusions of both is that they were inspired inner African cultures and languages as displayed on the previous pages.

 

[Holycannoli]

Nubians were Nubian, but they are still labeled "black". The Greeks were Greek, but people still label them as "white" Europeans. The Egyptians were Egyptians and modern scientific evidence confirms that they were originally what we would call "black".

Not necessarily. Many Indians have very dark skin tones but aren't considered black. Many latinos look exactly like italians but don't consider themselves white. Without knowing exactly what they looked like we can't say.

If you're using "black" in a very broad sense then yes, if it's the same broad sense that lables people from iran and saudi arabia both as "middle eastern".

This statement is false;

No it's absolutely true. Your book might say otherwise (what is the book btw?) but ancient egyptians lived millenia ago and have long absorbed and been absorbed into other races. It's not unlike saying modern Italians look like Romans. It's even stranger to think that people outside Egypt look like ancient egyptians.

Geographical proximity does not automatically mean similar features and skin tones. Europe is the perfect example. In a sense yes ancient europeans all looked "similar", but digging deeper it's easy to see just how different every region was. They may all be "white" but they're by no means all the same.

Egypt is not like China where modern chinese look much like the chinese of the ancient Qin dynasty.

When did I ever state that African Americans have a direct connection to ancient Egypt? What i stated based on a range of scientific evidence was that mixed along with fine featured Africans were broad featured Africans who were proven above to be found in substantial numbers during Egypts formation. African Americans are generally the descendants of broad featuref Africans. So Eddie Murphy displaying a broad featured African morphology would fit right in with early Egyptian society (much like Menes) with no questions asked (mustache aside). If Eddie Murphy is not a good representation of the ancient Egyptians then based on scientific researched who would you say does

You may not have said it but you'd be surprised at how many blacks do believe they have a direct connection to ancient Egypt. I have a black friend who insists Napoleon blew off the Sphinx's nose because it was too black.

Imam is still a much better likeness

 

[NovaKart]

I guess some of my opposition to Eddie Murphy portraying an ancient Egyptian has more to do with his reputation. Like if Bill Murray was chosen to portray a Roman emperor. I realize it's just a corny Michael Jackson video but still. Wasn't Magic Johnson in that travesty too?

Egyptians may be considered black by some in the same way Babylonians could be considered white but I don't see much of a resemblance between ancient Egyptian artwork and African Americans who are mostly descendants of West Africans mixed with white people. Sure this one obscure picture of Narmer shows him with a broad nose. So does a giant Olmec head and an old bronze artifact from the Shang dynasty but that doesn't mean those were common features or that they are completely analogous with people largely considered negroid.

http://heritage-key.com/blogs/ann/king-tut-scottish-how-far-can-dna-theories-stretch

This is a link about Tutankhamun's DNA which mentions Celtic ancestry. Basically the article reveals how DNS evidence can be faulty in determining race.

Anyway, I'm originally from Lexington although stuck in the former USSR so it's nice to see someone from the Bluegrass if your handle is anything to go by.

 

[Malian Warrior]

I, for one, believe that the Egyptians were a twisted web of races. The Africans were the first people in Egypt, and it could be accurate to say Narmer was "black" (I dislike it, I prefer dark brown). The Hebrew workers and the Hyksos brought in a Semitic population that would breed with the Africans. It can be safe to assume that Rammeses II was either Semitic, African or a mix of both. When the Persians conquered the region, the Egyptians now had Persians added to the mix, allowing for Semitics, Africans and Afro-Semitics to breed with them. When the Greeks came in, they added yet another ethnic group to this, allowing for their to be a person to have African, Semitic, Persian and Caucasian in his heredity. And while the Caucasian and Persian groups are not common outside of the very large cities, they can still be found.

Not just Narmer, but likely the entire Old Dynasty pre-Hyksos (which would include the pyramid builders) would have looked no different than sub-Saharan Africans as the evidence that has been provided shows. Robert Bauval has written a book called 'Black Genesis' that will be released April 2011 I believe. The book delves into even more evidence linking sub-Saharans with Egypt not discussed before. Namely a momument (which has recently been vandalized) called Nabta Playa found in the Sahara.

Bauval believes a community of early astronomers lived in the Sahara during the pre-Dynastic period and when the Sahara began to dry up (it was once a massive green savanna with lakes before it became a desert) they moved to the Nile and injected their knowledge of the stars learned through ages of traveling in the Sahara. The question of how the Ancient Egyptians developed their advanced knowledge of the stars has never really been answered and now Bauval has a new theory. Bauval also talks about an Ancient Egyptian inscription discovered in 2008 found deep in the interior of Africa...much deeper than Egyptologists ever believed the AEs traveled. The inscription mentions a Pharoah's name and that they were trading with a group that Bauval believes was the mysterious people the Egyptians called Yam.

Here's a great link talking about the discovery and the need to totally re-examine the origins of the Ancient Egyptians.

http://www.philipcoppens.com/tassili.html

The consensus among Egyptologists is that the Egyptians did not penetrate the desert any further than the area around Djedefre’s Water Mountain, a sandstone hill about 80 kilometres south west of the Dakhla Oasis that contains hieroglyphic inscriptions. discovery in 2003 by the German explorer Carlo Bergmann already caused a sensation as it extended the activities of the Pharaonic administrations an unprecedented 80 kilometres further out into the unknown and waterless Western Desert.

Now, that dogma has been shattered by the discoveries made by Mark Borda and Mahmoud Marai, from Malta and Egypt respectively, when surveying a field of boulders on the flanks of a hill deep in the Libyan desert, some 700 kilometres west of the Nile Valley – 630 kilometres further than the previous frontier of Egyptian exploration. Borda and Marai have stated they discovered engravings on a large rock consisting of hieroglyphic writing, a Pharaonic cartouche, an image of the king and other Pharaonic iconography. The short text yielded astonishing revelations. In the annals of Egyptian history there are references to far off lands that the pharaohs had traded with, but none of these have ever been positively located. Borda states that the decipherment reveals that the region of their find is none other than the fabled land of Yam, one of the most famous and mysterious nations that the Egyptians had traded with in Old Kingdom times; a source of precious tropical woods and ivory. “Its location has been debated by Egyptologists for over 150 years but it was never imagined it could be 700 kilometres west of the Nile in the middle of the Sahara desert.” With the dogma now shattered, it is clear that the field is laid wide open for further explorations.

 

[NovaKart]

Considering the book is called Black Genesis I'm kind of skeptical that it's an afrocentric book with an ax to grind and incredibly biased.

 

[Malian Warrior]

Considering the book is called Black Genesis I'm kind of skeptical that it's an afrocentric book with an ax to grind and incredibly biased.

You DO realize Robert Bauval is white right? So is the astrophysicist co-author Thomas Brophy. You don't need to be an "afrocentrist" to believe the Ancient Egyptians were Black. So to jump to conclusions based purely on the title is somewhat amatuerish no offense.

 

[ParkCungHee]

You DO realize Robert Bauval is white right? So is the astrophysicist co-author Thomas Brophy.

And?
Tenchar

 

[Malian Warrior]

And?
Tenchar

Meaning it has absolutely nothing to do with afrocentrism simply because it's a book supporting the theory of an African origin of Ancient Egypt. It's a divide and conquer attack and just wrong.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Meaning it has absolutely nothing to do with afrocentrism

Why?
Tenchar