...and the Empire still existed after the Second Rome fell. Symbolism, I guess. Adrianople had just about as much of a concrete effect, IMHO. I suppose the birth of Giotto would be a nice end date for the Middle Ages...or perhaps 1347. Yeah, I like 1347.
what do you feel is the best date for the beginning and the end of the middle ages?
- Thread starter philippe
- Start date
The mindset of the end of the middle ages is far too Eurocentric, and does not take into account the overarching effects of the Mongols and the Black death. I generally see the Mongols as the primary instigator of the end of the Middle Ages. It was them who brought down the Song, the Kieven Rus, Abbisads, and the Seljuks. These powers had, mostly, been declining for a long time. The Black death contributed further to the collapse and rebirth of societies in and outside of Europe.
I generally see the Middle ages ending in the late 1200s, and the Renaissance starting in the mid 1300s. By the late 1300s the great Ming, Ottoman, Romanov, and Safavid empires were quickly expanding and held power for the next three hundred years.
I know this time period is often seen only from a European view point, but it is impossible to negate the effects that the Ottomans and the Ming dynasty had on the technological revolutions that came about in Europe.
I generally see the Middle ages ending in the late 1200s, and the Renaissance starting in the mid 1300s. By the late 1300s the great Ming, Ottoman, Romanov, and Safavid empires were quickly expanding and held power for the next three hundred years.
I know this time period is often seen only from a European view point, but it is impossible to negate the effects that the Ottomans and the Ming dynasty had on the technological revolutions that came about in Europe.
North King
blech
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- 18,165
So...? The birthdates and deathdates of "ages" are going to be symbolic regardless of what you pick. With the possible exception of the 1520s, there are few decades which show enough change to be a new era, let alone years. Most change happens over centuries.
RavenKing
Warlord
Pardon my question if it's untutored, but why wouldn't one consider the crowning of Charlemagne as Holy Roman Empire the beginning of the Middle Ages (from an unabashedly Eurocentric viewpoint of course)? I tend to think of the Middle Ages as being the period when medieval European political structures emerged, and the crowning of a Frankish king as 'Roman' Emperor. Besides its a nice round number.
As for the end date, I like 1455, the year of the publication of the Gutenberg Bible, and because by that time the Renaissance really was in full swing. It also coincides neatly with the fall of Constantinople and the Portuguese explorations of the coast of Africa, the first of which has an important symbolic resonance as end of the Eastern Roman Empire, and the second of which heralded Western Europe's massive expansion outward into the world.
As for the end date, I like 1455, the year of the publication of the Gutenberg Bible, and because by that time the Renaissance really was in full swing. It also coincides neatly with the fall of Constantinople and the Portuguese explorations of the coast of Africa, the first of which has an important symbolic resonance as end of the Eastern Roman Empire, and the second of which heralded Western Europe's massive expansion outward into the world.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
People; the Middle Ages is a European phenomenon. Any and every definition of it is going to be Euro centric. Stop collectively shatting yourselves because its definitions are European-based, that's like whining that the President of the United States is American.
Dr.Mindbender
King
Then what do you suppose we shall call this Eurocentric phenomenon when in fact we only have the Eurocentric version of it available?
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
The Eurocentric version is the only version. It's a European time period. It doesn't matter what is going on in China, or Africa, the Middle East, or the Americas; they have their own time periods that overlap this one. It's a European time period, so only European events matter when defining it.
I think it would be fair to say that the nature of Europe and the incredible need to innovate early on was primarily caused by the Ottomans. The Ottomans also had an immense impact on the trade policies guiding western Europe.
So, it's completely ignorant to ignore the impact the Mongols and the Ottomans had on the cultural revolutions in Europe.
So, it's completely ignorant to ignore the impact the Mongols and the Ottomans had on the cultural revolutions in Europe.
soverkun
Chieftain
My take:
Start: 529 - Justinian closes the academy in Athens, no more "pagan" research in all of Europe
End: 1397 - foundation of Medici Bank
Start: 529 - Justinian closes the academy in Athens, no more "pagan" research in all of Europe
End: 1397 - foundation of Medici Bank
Mirc
Not mIRC!!!
And what do you base this on? I don't think the Italian trecento was caused by the Ottomans in any way whatsoever... Of course they affected the course of all history, just like any large empire did, but what exactly did they have to do with the renaissance which happened in Western Europe??
Mad Man
Your lord and master
5000bc-1997ad
Hey, man, that Giotto dude and his ideas definitely were sparked by those Ottomans that were at the time screwing around about a thousand miles away with little impact on Italian affairs. Do not question history.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
Hey, man, that Giotto dude and his ideas definitely were sparked by those Ottomans that were at the time screwing around about a thousand miles away with little impact on Italian affairs. Do not question history.
The diaspora of Greek scholars from Constantinople to destinations in Northern Italy, and the ancient texts they brought with them means you are somewhat correct, despite your best attempts to the contrary.
By the time the Ottomans had seized Gallipoli and made their first irruption into Europe, Giotto was dead and had been so for more than fifteen years. Said diaspora was not started by the Ottoman Turks, though they sure had a hand in its later bits.The diaspora of Greek scholars from Constantinople to destinations in Northern Italy, and the ancient texts they brought with them means you are somewhat correct, despite your best attempts to the contrary.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
It started long before then, arguably as early as 1204. Also, remember that the Ottoman capital was only a few score miles from Propontis.
1204 is exactly what I was thinking, and the reason why I didn't place the blame on the Ottomans like the poster to whom I - or, rather, Mirc - was responding did.
Huayna Capac357
Deity
I used to put an exact date on this stuff but I think a range alone suffices.
Middle Ages: [(313-475)-(1300-1492)]
Of course there were "medieval" events long after that i.e. the Salem witch hunts.
Middle Ages: [(313-475)-(1300-1492)]
Of course there were "medieval" events long after that i.e. the Salem witch hunts.
C~G
Untouchable
- Joined
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How about we agree that not only the time period of other continents overlap but also the time periods of the same continents also overlap and be done with it.
Reason for this is obvious: There are no single dates that you can use as starting and ending since example renaissance can be seen to start in other countries long before it started on others. Only we could find would be some kind of "optimum" but not any definitive dates.
If must then I would rather have each time period divided also to at least three parts each in which way the first part always overlaps with the previous time periods last part etc. Of course then we might find some definitive dates were this overlapping started and ended. We could find then the "core" of that time period that could be seen having any major elements of other time periods. Now, we only need to find what those elements of "Middle ages" exactly are that charactizes it unlike time periods that came before or after it.
But it also depends so much into what things we're percepting. Do we use style of arts, ideas or technological development or political events to determine or do we rely into some kind of more theoretized "paradigm shift" that combines these elements and seemingly blends them into one.
Reason for this is obvious: There are no single dates that you can use as starting and ending since example renaissance can be seen to start in other countries long before it started on others. Only we could find would be some kind of "optimum" but not any definitive dates.
If must then I would rather have each time period divided also to at least three parts each in which way the first part always overlaps with the previous time periods last part etc. Of course then we might find some definitive dates were this overlapping started and ended. We could find then the "core" of that time period that could be seen having any major elements of other time periods. Now, we only need to find what those elements of "Middle ages" exactly are that charactizes it unlike time periods that came before or after it.
But it also depends so much into what things we're percepting. Do we use style of arts, ideas or technological development or political events to determine or do we rely into some kind of more theoretized "paradigm shift" that combines these elements and seemingly blends them into one.
I agree, so:
That the current Middle Ages dates are eurocentric is not really an argument. In fact the opening up of intercontinental relations in a political sense around 1500 follows up on the similar development in an economic sense in the Ancient era. (I limited my point to the Middle Ages time period, as that's what the original question refers to. Similar reevaluations might be appropriate for postmedieval period dating.)
@Huayna Capac357: Witch trials are actually more post-medieval, according to the current Middle Ages dates.
That the current Middle Ages dates are eurocentric is not really an argument. In fact the opening up of intercontinental relations in a political sense around 1500 follows up on the similar development in an economic sense in the Ancient era. (I limited my point to the Middle Ages time period, as that's what the original question refers to. Similar reevaluations might be appropriate for postmedieval period dating.)
@Huayna Capac357: Witch trials are actually more post-medieval, according to the current Middle Ages dates.
Huayna Capac357
Deity
@ JEELEN: But I meant that they have a medieval nature.
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