What do you think are the greatest Civiliations in history?

[civverguy]

I'm going with China and Rome.

 

[Mirc]

1421 is before Spain was anything, and was only the very very beginning of European "hmm, there could be a world out there..."

Wait, are you really serious? Because you really can't argue against something without really knowing that history. Are you aware of the Italian trecento and quattrocento? Of the Golden Century of the City of Ink? It happened during 1350 - 1450.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Wait, are you really serious? Because you really can't argue against something without really knowing that history. Are you aware of the Italian trecento and quattrocento? Of the Golden Century of the City of Ink? It happened during 1350 - 1450.

*smacks head* okay, now im starting to drift off into space... anyhow, my point was that at the time, Europe paled in comparison to China. in 1700, except for the world colonies, Europe still was not comparable to China in advancement and economic prosperity. in 1750, Europe caught up with China.

 

[Plotinus]

Printing Press + Paper - Hmm... a bit harder, but let me go into this anyhow. First, The Printing

Press, along with Paper, was one of the key ingredients of the quick rise of the Protestant

Reformation. it allowed the Protestant's views to spread quickly, much more quickly than it could

have previously. Protestanism wouldve probably collapsed without its quick rise, and with its

collapse, the power of many countries to come - Bourbon France, England, Netherlands, many of

the more powerful German states - all of that would've been gone. Secondly, Printing Press and

Paper helped make it easier for Europeans to spread their beliefs and culture around. Take these

two out, and the American Revolution would've been unable to gather enough support; take these

two out, and all that Liberalism, Communism, and whatever philosophies that wouold dominate

the world to come - gone, or at least it would've taken them a very longer time to develop and gain

popularity. Take these two out, and many great literature wouold have taken longer to develop.

Take these two out, and you'd be waiting for years, if not decades, just to get your hands on a

Harry Potter book.

But surely printing in Europe was invented independently of Chinese printing, which was quite a different sort of affair. If the Chinese had never invented printing it probably would have been invented in Europe much as it actually was.

 

[aronnax]

But surely printing in Europe was invented independently of Chinese printing, which was quite a different sort of affair. If the Chinese had never invented printing it probably would have been invented in Europe much as it actually was.

yes, the europeans invented the printing press without any help, but whats the point of a priniting press if there aint no paper. Paper came to Europe via Arabia from China. So no paper, no printing press, no reformation.....

 

[cybrxkhan]

^and no Harry Potter books for little kiddies.

 

[Plotinus]

I think it's also a bit simplistic to say that the Reformation wouldn't have happened without printing. It wouldn't have happened as it did, of course, but that's not the same thing.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I think it's also a bit simplistic to say that the Reformation wouldn't have happened without printing. It wouldn't have happened as it did, of course, but that's not the same thing.

but it would have been severely weakened. printing allowed it to spread rapidly, and that was a key to its sucess. without rapid spread, the good old Catholics could've easily hunted down or do whatever to the few Protestants, and declare them heretics and burn them at stake because the Protestants would hve had few(er) supporters.

 

[Will9]

Using my custom scoring system out of 80 points I got this for my top 3:

1. Egypt 76 pts.
2. Rome 74 pts.
3. America 73 pts.

honerable mentions: Mesopotamia and Arabia (respectivaly 4th and 5th) If it had not been for the centalization/unification catagory, Mesopotamia would have gotten 2nd and Arabia would have tied with Rome for 3rd (Egypt still at 1st)

Before I did this scoring I first thought Rome, England, and China (in no special order)

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

IMO the Islamic civilization and Chinese civilization most specifically of the middle ages were the best, however thats an opinion but very close to the truth.

 

[cybrxkhan]

UPDATE...

Rome and China seem to be taking the clear lead, with Britain/England and the Hellenics very close in third and forth...

 

[TheLastOne36]

heh, Vietnam is at 0....

 

[cybrxkhan]

^i wish i could revote...

 

[Plotinus]

...without rapid spread, the good old Catholics could've easily hunted down or do whatever to the few Protestants, and declare them heretics and burn them at stake because the Protestants would hve had few(er) supporters.

I don't think that's true. The Protestants were supported not by great big literate mobs who had read about their ideas in pamphlets but by princes and other political figures who seized upon the new movement because it gave them an opportunity to snub (a) the pope and (b) the Catholic powers of Europe. I'm sure that would still have happened even without such widespread popular support.

I think that printing had more of an impact in the later Reformation than in the early years. However, you must bear in mind that the impact of printing on the dissemination of these ideas was necessarily limited anyway given that so few people could read, particularly in the countryside.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I don't think that's true. The Protestants were supported not by great big literate mobs who had read about their ideas in pamphlets but by princes and other political figures who seized upon the new movement because it gave them an opportunity to snub (a) the pope and (b) the Catholic powers of Europe. I'm sure that would still have happened even without such widespread popular support.

I think that printing had more of an impact in the later Reformation than in the early years. However, you must bear in mind that the impact of printing on the dissemination of these ideas was necessarily limited anyway given that so few people could read, particularly in the countryside.

i suppose you have a point there, but the printing press + paper will still, nevertheless, an important part of the future of culture and literature.

 

[dh_epic]

the birthplace of liberalism is the rebellious minds that is naturally found in teenagers throughout history dating back to prehistoric times.

Most philosophy was in some way shape or form born before 0 AD, and multiple times, in multiple parts of the world. But by "birthplace of liberalism", I mean a place where it could actually take root and grow, instead of becoming aborted in its infancy. Even with the Greek, Italian, and eventually British influences on liberal thought, America is still really where this idea took root and flourished.

I also have to politely disagree. Remember India's "untouchables" India has a wretched Caste system, which has held the poor down for centuries.

Hey, I'm not saying they were the most humane administration in history. If you read again carefully, you'll note that I acknowledged every single civilization's dark side. But by and large, India has contributed revolutionary ideas to notions of human rights and justice at many points in history.

Obviously, you can't have more humanity than you have now, in nations where there is greater wealth than ever, and a willingness to share that with its people. But that's very different from "contributions to humanity", to which I think India has made some of the greatest.

 

[Steph]

Using my custom scoring system out of 80 points I got this for my top 3:

Could you explain your scoring system? Sounds interesting

 

[Will9]

Could you explain your scoring system? Sounds interesting

I originaly had 7 catagories

1. Historical Significance- how much they affected history
2. Military Power- how powerful their military was
3. Political Power- How easily the leader(s) could affect external events
4. Cultural Power- How unique the culture of this civ was (by unique I mean compared to ones that came earlier), how long lasting the culture was, and how easily the culture was adopted elsewhere
5. Economic Power- how powerful the econemy of the civ was without having to plunder its own land or make incredibally high taxes and how far reaching their trade was.
6. Scientific Development- how many scientific advances and important inventions were made here
7. Architectural Achievements- how good their Architecture was compared others of their time

I went though the list and decided if a civ was important in any of these catagories. If I dicided yes to all 7 I would look at them closer. I ended up with Arabia, America, China, Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia, and Rome. I ended up deciding to add a unifcation catagory at this point. I then look at each catagory and give each civ a score from 0-10. I 6then added up the score.

I recently stated a Greatest civilization process on the Poly History Forum based on this.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

I would put architectural achievements under cultural power IMO. What about another factor: time of power.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Most philosophy was in some way shape or form born before 0 AD, and multiple times, in multiple parts of the world. But by "birthplace of liberalism", I mean a place where it could actually take root and grow, instead of becoming aborted in its infancy. Even with the Greek, Italian, and eventually British influences on liberal thought, America is still really where this idea took root and flourished.

i was kind of joking, im sure you know that. anyhow, i found ONE OF the definitions of liberalism on the internet, besides all that political movement and philosophy definitions:

1. the quality or state of being liberal, as in behavior or attitude.

so, in theory, it is possible for "liberalism", according to this definition, to have existed since the dawn of time or whatever.