What do you think are the greatest Civiliations in history?

[SkippyT]

Well, I don't want to join that kind of debate as all this is very highly subjective. However, I can't resist asking:
What exactly is specifically American about watching TV while surfing the internet??

Bill Gates is American, right? (Internet)
The best TV shows we watch are American (TV)

 

[dutchking]

That contains a big expanse of nothing, which includes Siberia. They would threaten sending people there for punishment, just because its utterly desolate, every country has its unliked spot, but 2/3 of Russia seems to be that spot. But Russias cool anyway!

Yes, but 2/3 of China is Desert...the Gobi and the other one I can't remember...I'm also surprised at the high chinese vote. They haven't spread their influence worldwide at all and never had colonies, or anything. They're more important than Britain? Which even beat china, and now the chinese are scared of having a western influence? It just doesn't sound right.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Yes, but 2/3 of China is Desert...the Gobi and the other one I can't remember...I'm also surprised at the high chinese vote. They haven't spread their influence worldwide at all and never had colonies, or anything. They're more important than Britain? Which even beat china, and now the chinese are scared of having a western influence? It just doesn't sound right.

China at the least equals the Britihsh. i suppose i am slightly biased on that, but im supposed to be hating China because im Viet. anyhow, for starters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

Gunpowder is in there. Europe would got nowhere with gunpowder, because any Aztec, Inca, Zulu, Congonese, and other "native" army couold've easily owned the Europeans.

and what about Printing Press, Compass, Paper... it has even been claimed that the Chinese first invented restaurants! (the oldest existing restaurant in the world, some chicken take out, is in China, and dates to c. 1100 CE during the Song dynasty, and still operates to this day)

Before c. 1750, yes, even around the time of Bach, China, along with India, was the most prosperous, most advanced nation on earth.

a puny Chinese army in 1500 could easily vanquish any large European army. they had superior weaponry, for one thing. huge cannons and guns, flamethrowers, repeating crossbows (shot at semi-machine gun rate) - the cho-ko-nu, rockets, multi-stage rockets, rockets that shot from rockets, grenades, blinding grenades, grenades filled with pee, other types of grenades, multi-shot muskets... some people have even claimed Chinese soldiers were running around with machine guns by 1000 (though i find this ridiculous)!


of course, that doesn't show importance. so how is it important.... Rome is to Western civilzaiton as China is to Eastern civilization. in fact, had things had gone as they would've gone, China would be the world's superpower and extracting tribute from all the little countries scattered around the world... and, skewedly, it deserved so, because it was one of the most wealthiest and advanced countries of the world for a huge span of human history.

Britain does owe its power to China. all the European powers owe their power to China. and not only China, but other Asian powers, like Mongolia, India, Persia, Arabia, etc.

 

[Steph]

No, not in particular. Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia when they thought Serbia would not do anything to punish the student that assassinated their heir. So technically Austria started it. Then Russia declared war on Austria-Hungary, due to its alliance with Serbia and then Germany mobilized it's forces in defense of it's ally Austria-Hungary and then Britain and France, due to a secret alliance with Russia, declared war on Germany.

A small reminder for WWI history revisionist who don't at least check some facts.

28th of July: Austria declare war on Serbia
31st of July: Germany send an ultimatum to Russia and France
1st of August: Germany declare war on Russia
2nd of August : Germany invade Luxemburg, a neutral country
2nd of August : Germany send an ultimatum to Belgium, also neutral
3rd of August : Germany declare war on France
4th of August : Germany invade Belgium, still neutral
4th of August : UK declare war on Germany to protect Belgium
6th of August : Austria declare war on Russia
October : The Ottoman empire joins the war.

So, Austria is the agressor of Serbia and Russia
Germany is the agressor of Russia, France, Luxembourg and Belgium, two of these countries being neutral
France declare war to Austria-Hungary only the 11th of August. Russia did not declare war to anyone.

Most of the figthing on the Western France was done in France, and very few in Germany.

Are you so sure Germany was not an agressor?

 

[aronnax]

A small reminder for WWI history revisionist who don't at least check some facts.

28th of July: Austria declare war on Serbia
31st of July: Germany send an ultimatum to Russia and France
1st of August: Germany declare war on Russia
2nd of August : Germany invade Luxemburg, a neutral country
2nd of August : Germany send an ultimatum to Belgium, also neutral
3rd of August : Germany declare war on France
4th of August : Germany invade Belgium, still neutral
4th of August : UK declare war on Germany to protect Belgium
6th of August : Austria declare war on Russia
October : The Ottoman empire joins the war.

So, Austria is the agressor of Serbia and Russia
Germany is the agressor of Russia, France, Luxembourg and Belgium, two of these countries being neutral
France declare war to Austria-Hungary only the 11th of August. Russia did not declare war to anyone.

Most of the figthing on the Western France was done in France, and very few in Germany.

Are you so sure Germany was not an agressor?

This is most likely the first time I agree with you

 

[Steph]

This is most likely the first time I agree with you

Good, there is still a little hope for you then.

 

[aronnax]

Good, there is still a little hope for you then.

Oh you are just as good as a comedian as Aelf arent you.

 

[Steph]

Oh you are just as good as a comedian as Aelf arent you.

That's not true. I'm at least twice better

 

[innonimatu]

a puny Chinese army in 1500 could easily vanquish any large European army. they had superior weaponry, for one thing. huge cannons and guns, flamethrowers, repeating crossbows (shot at semi-machine gun rate) - the cho-ko-nu, rockets, multi-stage rockets, rockets that shot from rockets, grenades, blinding grenades, grenades filled with pee, other types of grenades, multi-shot muskets... some people have even claimed Chinese soldiers were running around with machine guns by 1000 (though i find this ridiculous)!

I think dutchking was arguing precisely that what you mentioned (a puny Chinese army in 1500 easily vanquish a large European army) never actually happened. In fact the opposite would eventually happen.

Claims are claims, but facts are facts. And the fact is that China has not ever been more than a regional power.

Britain does owe its power to China. all the European powers owe their power to China. and not only China, but other Asian powers, like Mongolia, India, Persia, Arabia, etc.

That's an utterly absurd claim.

 

[dutchking]

China at the least equals the Britihsh. i suppose i am slightly biased on that, but im supposed to be hating China because im Viet. anyhow, for starters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

Gunpowder is in there. Europe would got nowhere with gunpowder, because any Aztec, Inca, Zulu, Congonese, and other "native" army couold've easily owned the Europeans.

and what about Printing Press, Compass, Paper... it has even been claimed that the Chinese first invented restaurants! (the oldest existing restaurant in the world, some chicken take out, is in China, and dates to c. 1100 CE during the Song dynasty, and still operates to this day)

Look at this:
List of English Discoveries
It's ten times longer than yours...
Also, why are you comparing China with the West? Their culture hasn't even touched us and they're afraid of ours spreading into theirs. Do you know why Christianity is forbidden in China? Anyway, I still don't understand how they could be the most important civilization in world history. Maybe in Asian history, but not world history. They haven't spread their influence at all to the West. Expanding in your own territory isn't cool man.
Also, they never used gunpowder for wepondry, they only used it for other stuff I can't remember, that's why the British beat them.

 

[Yui108]

@ Steph : I believe you, I checked my facts on wiki, then double checked on Answers, but obviously they can be wrong.

@ Dutchking : I agree, what has China done outside of Asia. Colonization was quite brutal, but you cannot be considered a significant civilization if you have not at least expanded your influence beyond the borders of the homeland.

 

[Mirc]

Also, they never used gunpowder for wepondry, they only used it for other stuff I can't remember, that's why the British beat them.

Exactly, it was used first for fireworks.

teenagers are teenagers. hormones and chemicals have remained unchanged for years.

heh. heh???

I doubt it. How old was Cleopatra when she was already the leader of her country? Teenagers changed really a lot along time. A girl from 1600 in her late twenties was as mature as a girl in her mid teens in Ancient Egypt or Rome, or even a girl in her early teens.

 

[Plotinus]

Do you know why Christianity is forbidden in China?

Er - it isn't.

 

[aronnax]

@ Dutchking : I agree, what has China done outside of Asia. Colonization was quite brutal, but you cannot be considered a significant civilization if you have not at least expanded your influence beyond the borders of the homeland.

Japan? Korea? Vietnam? To an extent Central Asia?

 

[Yui108]

Japan? Korea? Vietnam? To an extent Central Asia?

China has exerted VERY little control over Japan. If I remember correctly, it was JAPAN that occupied China, not the other way around. As for Korea China never controlled them, but yes did influence their culture. How did the Chinese influence Central Asia or Vietnam?

 

[aronnax]

China has exerted VERY little control over Japan. If I remember correctly, it was JAPAN that occupied China, not the other way around. As for Korea China never controlled them, but yes did influence their culture. How did the Chinese influence Central Asia or Vietnam?

Um..... actually capture the regions or vassalise it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tang_dynasty1.PNG

China never control Japan or Korea, but the cultural footprint it stamped on the two countries will influence it. China helped Korea repel a Japanese invasion. The millitary support most likely helped overwhelm the Japanese.

 

[Plotinus]

China has exerted VERY little control over Japan. If I remember correctly, it was JAPAN that occupied China, not the other way around. As for Korea China never controlled them, but yes did influence their culture. How did the Chinese influence Central Asia or Vietnam?

China has had enormous cultural influence over Japan. There is more to influence than just political control. In religion, philosophy, and literature there has been immense influence - just look at the fact that the Japanese use Chinese characters for writing, even though the languages are totally dissimilar.

This was illustrated in the sixteenth century when the Jesuits began preaching in Japan. They found that the Japanese were sceptical about Christianity because (they thought) the Chinese had never heard of it, and anything that the Chinese didn't have couldn't be much good. This was one of the motivations for Alessandro Valignano to begin planning the missions to China: it was felt that if the missions in Japan were to have any success there must also be missions to China, if only to demonstrate that the Chinese did approve of Christianity after all.

 

[cybrxkhan]

okay, guys. here i go.

Dutchking, i think what we are confusing is Cultural Influence and Historical Importance. yes,

Britain was very important culturally, thats why English is the language of international

communication these days (though there are still more Chinese speakers ).

also, realize that i view importance in history from the "past is more important" view. what this

means is that what came before is more important than what came after, because what came

before has more influence on what is to come after, if you know what i mean.

So, without further ado, i will lay out my incompetant arguments, of why China is very important to

the course of world history, as well as everything else that's not Europe.

Look at this:

List of English Discoveries

It's ten times longer than yours...

it seems bigger... but is it necessarily better? maybe. (on a side note, it is believed that up to half

the worlds inventions were made in China). but, however, Chinese inventions are heck more

important to the history of the world.

Gunpowder - Hmm... not a very hard one, but i'll expalin. take gunpowder out of history. what do

you get. hmm... well, gunpowder is the necessity for pre-modern and modern firearms, which

meant that Europe would be no more powerful militarily than the Zulu Impis, the Aztec warriors, or

the Native American archers. well, bye bye European power, bye bye Britain, no more big

EUrope to rule the world.

Printing Press + Paper - Hmm... a bit harder, but let me go into this anyhow. First, The Printing

Press, along with Paper, was one of the key ingredients of the quick rise of the Protestant

Reformation. it allowed the Protestant's views to spread quickly, much more quickly than it could

have previously. Protestanism wouldve probably collapsed without its quick rise, and with its

collapse, the power of many countries to come - Bourbon France, England, Netherlands, many of

the more powerful German states - all of that would've been gone. Secondly, Printing Press and

Paper helped make it easier for Europeans to spread their beliefs and culture around. Take these

two out, and the American Revolution would've been unable to gather enough support; take these

two out, and all that Liberalism, Communism, and whatever philosophies that wouold dominate

the world to come - gone, or at least it would've taken them a very longer time to develop and gain

popularity. Take these two out, and many great literature wouold have taken longer to develop.

Take these two out, and you'd be waiting for years, if not decades, just to get your hands on a

Harry Potter book.

Also, they never used gunpowder for wepondry, they only used it for other stuff I can't

remember, that's why the British beat them.

the Chinese invented gunpowder weaponry. they invented guns. when the British beat them, it was

long long after the invention of gunpowder and China was in decline. but when they were in their

prime, they used guns. search wikipedia or something - China invented modern warfare with the

invention of gunpowder and the gun. they also happened to invent, as i mentioned above, bamboo

tubed firearms, muskets, cannons, double sided cannons, multiple-shot muskets, rockets, multi-

stage rockets, rockets that shot from rockets, grenades, pee filled grenades, grenades that

blinded you, grenades that made loud noices, arrows with gunpowder on them, crossbow bolts

with gunpowder on them, etc. etc. etc. etc.

@ Dutchking : I agree, what has China done outside of Asia.

Colonization was quite brutal, but you cannot be considered a significant civilization if you have

not at least expanded your influence beyond the borders of the homeland.

i wonder why the Three Kingdoms is considered a great classic in Japan, Korea, AND Vietnam...

i wonder why silk went all the way to Africa and Constantinople... i wonder why most of the

Vietnamese, Japanese, and Korean technical vocabulary has words derived from Chinese... i

wonder why all these things and more are here...

China has exerted VERY little control over Japan. If I remember correctly,

it was JAPAN that occupied China, not the other way around. As for Korea China never controlled

them, but yes did influence their culture. How did the Chinese influence Central Asia or Vietnam?

over Japan... Japan occupied China in World War II. we're talking Ancient and Medieval times

here. seriously, if you see any movies about the THree Kingdoms, you'd see the Han dynasty

culture had a strange resemblance to the Japanese, and the Han cam efirst. when the Japanese

first decided to go civilization mode, they thught to themselves, "Hmm, what shuold we do, shuld

we make our own culture which will take centuries and could fail, or just cheat and copy from those

advanced and prosperous Chinese?" so they adopted the Chinese way, and they made it unique,

but it still came from China. in Vietnam, also, as i said above, 90% of the technical vocabulary is

derived from China. for example, the word for a Mafia-style boss in Vietnamese, "Dai Nhan",

comes from the Chinese "Da Ren".


and to furutre support the fact that China DID go on conquests (though not to the extent of the

Europeans), look at any map of the Qing Dynasty at its height, and compare it with a map of the

Ming Dynasty. big difference.

That's an utterly absurd claim.

i usually don't like saying this, because i believe it shows arrogance in part of the sayer, but, i'll say

it: read some history, and think about what you read.

and now, i must go and prove how these non-western nations helped to get the Europeans where

they are today.

First up... (drumroll please)


1. Arabia + Persia
- preserved ancient Greek and Roman knowledge, developed many scientific techniques that

would be used by early European scientists
- invented the Arabic number system we used today. doing division with Roman numerals ain't

fun.
- the enemy of Europe during the Crusades. had it not been the Crusades, Europeans wouldn't

have gotten their first brush of "ah, there's a world out there!" but...
- also invented certain sailing and shipbuilding techniques used by the Europeans in their

explorations


2. Mongolia (and China)
- really gave the Europeans their wake up call to that there was a world out there. this is where

Marco Polo went to see all those riches that later Europeans wanted to have and thrade for
- Mongolia also weakened China, India, and Muslim empires, making the Europeans' possibility

of world domination only easier.


3. China
- explained above - world would've gotten much slower without gunpowder and printing and paper


4. India
- made up concept of zero. math just made a lot easier.


5. China + East Asia + Southeast Asia + India + Persia + Central Asia + Mongolia + Arabia +

Eastern Africa + Egypt + Great Zimbabwe.

- they were part of two HUGE MAJOR international trade routes, the Silk Road, and the maritime

one based mostly around the Indian sea, that dominated most of international trade for more than

a millenia until the Europeans came. this is where the Europeans came and wanted all those

goody goody riches, and that is why they discovered America



anyhow, to demonstrate the world wielding (except the Americas) power of early Ming dynasty China, there was a huge international party at the Ming dynasty palace around 1421. all the great nations of the world were invited, all the nations that hda been the world powers and so forth for centuries and more. participants:

- Ming China
- Japan
- Korea
- Various Mongol Tribes
- Vietnam
- TIbet
- Thai
- Various Indonesian States, including Malacca
- Sultanate of Delhi
- Various other Indian states
- Various Central Asian states, sucessor states of the TImurids
- Persian states
- Muslim states
- Egypt
- Various east African states
- A few interior African states
...

wait a moment, no Europeans?!?!?!?! Not even the Byzantines or the Italians??? wow...


anyhow, to make the long story short, in the long run, for better or worse, EUrope took over the world, but they wouldn't have gotten there wihtout the Asians.

 

[Mirc]

Ok, that's a very long post, and I definitely agree that without even the smallest nation in the world, the world would have been so totally different to what it is now. But something caught my attention:

anyhow, to demonstrate the world wielding (except the Americas) power of early Ming dynasty China, there was a huge international party at the Ming dynasty palace around 1421. all the great nations of the world were invited, all the nations that hda been the world powers and so forth for centuries and more. participants:

- Ming China
- Japan
- Korea
- Various Mongol Tribes
- Vietnam
- TIbet
- Thai
- Various Indonesian States, including Malacca
- Sultanate of Delhi
- Various other Indian states
- Various Central Asian states, sucessor states of the TImurids
- Persian states
- Muslim states
- Egypt
- Various east African states
- A few interior African states
...

wait a moment, no Europeans?!?!?!?! Not even the Byzantines or the Italians??? wow...

That's a totally invalid argument. It just shows how disconnected to some parts of the world China was. Do you know how powerful the Kingdom of Castile was in that time?

(and of course Byzantium was not invited, considering it fell in 1453)

 

[cybrxkhan]

It just shows how disconnected to some parts of the world China was. Do you know how powerful the Kingdom of Castile was in that time?

(and of course Byzantium was not invited, considering it fell in 1453)

1. Some. Europe is not "some". its a very small part. and it was not that much of an impressive part either at the time.

2. Read what i wrote again:

there was a huge international party at the Ming dynasty palace around 1421.

1421 = 1453 - number.

1421 is before Spain was anything, and was only the very very beginning of European "hmm, there could be a world out there..."