What do you think are the greatest Civiliations in history?

[dh_epic]

I think something to consider what some people call the "logarithmic time scale".

Egypt lasted 3500 to 5500 years before being passed around between the Greeks, Romans, and Arabs. That's a long time. But think about the rate of invention -- as captured by the Civilization tech tree. The amount of innovation in the first 4000 years of the game is similar to that of the last 100 years of the game!

In that sense, I think America gets a bad rap. They've been around since the late renaissance, done quite well in the industrial era, and utterly dominated the modern era. I gave them a vote because I think a lot of people miss the importance of that.

I also voted for India -- birthplace of some of the most influential religious and philosophical ideas in the world -- and Mesopotamia for the magnitude of their inventions like writing, agriculture, and the wheel.

(But I also quite like Rome, China, and Greece.)

 

[dh_epic]

Just because I'm a nerd...

1. Importance to History
This is tough. More like a collection of things. Is Greece important for creating some pivotal ideas, or is Rome important for spreading them? Is Britain or Spain important for colonizing the world, or is Mongolia important for creating a stable peace that aroused European interest in Eastern trade? Or was it Turkey who blocked the land routes, encouraging exploration westward? Or was it China just for being such a steady contributor?

2. Military Power/Influence
You really can't mess with Mongolia. But Britain was pretty serious too.

3. Political Power/Influence
China. The Mandate of Heaven, as far as I understand it, taught that the Emperor of China was the Emperor of the world, with the rulers of all other nations as merely kings ready to pay tribute. The most impressive part is that other leaders really bought into it. At several moments in history there were Koreans, Japanese, and other Eastern rulers who acknowledged the supremacy of *another country's ruler*. Anyone who conquered China had to justify themselves as being the "natural" successor to this mandate. And it didn't change until the Westphalian System reached the East around the time of industrialization... and even then, that wasn't convincing enough to make Tibet anything more than a tributary of China. That *idea* makes them a more powerful political force than most outright conquerors.

America and Britain deserve honorable mention for their current hyperpower status. But America looks like they used up their top spot much too quickly, and Britain held their top spot mostly by force rather than their ideas.

4. Cultural Power/Influence
This is a tough one.

Greece laid down many of the basic ideas that influenced Western Civilization that have spread throughout the world. But Arabia is 80% of the reason there are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world.

India also created numerous religions and ultimately influenced others, enough that when Europeans unlocked the secrets of ancient Sanskrit texts they thought that Christianity had been influenced by Buddha.

But America is the birthplace of liberalism, which swept across the world. On the other hand, it's hard not to give credit to the rest of Europe for laying the foundation.

I think religion has just been a much more powerful force. So I'd give the nod to Arabia or India.

5. Scientific and Innovative Achievements
Greece or China. In almost any University for almost any subject, if you study back far enough you end up looking at Greece. On the other hand, China has many more tangible inventions: the printing press (in a more limited form, mind you), the compass, paper, gunpowder... Science and invention are not always the same thing.

6. Cultural Longetivity
China for a balance between longevity and influence. India has more longevity, but a little less influence. Egypt and Ethiopia are also long-standing ideas, but have changed so much. America is actually very influential for essentially "half of Civilization" (if you look at the "technology tree"), but obviously that's relatively short.

7. Economical Power/Influence
America. Not just because of their wealth, but the way their wealth has shaped the world. When you think "the golden rule is that whoever has the gold makes the rules", you only have to think of America's *global* economic power.

8. Architectural Achievements
Egypt would win the ancient era, but Greece literally wrote the rule book on what qualifies as a wonder in the classical era. Too bad most of them fell apart, though. Arabia would dominate the middle ages. But France rise quickly soon after, all the way to the Industrial age. And yet anyone who has visited Italy or India could not help but be mesmerized.

I honestly couldn't say.

9. Capability to Destroy
This is similar to military power. The Mongolians had that power and did indeed wield it. But we've never been more at the mercy of mutually assured destruction today.

10. Humanity
I'd easily go with India. The birthplace of vegetarianism through the Jainists. The first empire to embrace "pacifism" as it is called in Civilization 4 -- and an early form of religious tolerance along with it. Even some of the oldest monks there used to wear face masks because they did not want to harm a fly. Ultimately, the birthplace of passive resistance, where the struggle for human rights there influenced the struggle for civil rights around the world.

Of course, no nation is without its ugly side. And there are other major cultural ideas that have led to peace and prosperity. But distinctly, India has had a long history of governing for the welfare of its people first.


I would pull apart cultural impact a lot more. Religion, politics, and art are all very separate manifestations of culture. Religious culture and influence makes me think of India or Arabia, while political culture or influence makes me think of Greece or Rome... Art definitely makes me think of renaissance Italy, although poetry (India), drama (Greece), movies (America), and music (Arabia) all have distinct contributors.

 

[silver 2039]

India, China, Persia, Rome, Arabia, Britian, France, Hellenic.

 

[Yui108]

No, not in particular. Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia when they thought Serbia would not do anything to punish the student that assassinated their heir. So technically Austria started it. Then Russia declared war on Austria-Hungary, due to its alliance with Serbia and then Germany mobilized it's forces in defense of it's ally Austria-Hungary and then Britain and France, due to a secret alliance with Russia, declared war on Germany.

 

[Yui108]

10. Humanity
I'd easily go with India. The birthplace of vegetarianism through the Jainists. The first empire to embrace "pacifism" as it is called in Civilization 4 -- and an early form of religious tolerance along with it. Even some of the oldest monks there used to wear face masks because they did not want to harm a fly. Ultimately, the birthplace of passive resistance, where the struggle for human rights there influenced the struggle for civil rights around the world.

Of course, no nation is without its ugly side. And there are other major cultural ideas that have led to peace and prosperity. But distinctly, India has had a long history of governing for the welfare of its people first.

I also have to politely disagree. Remember India's "untouchables" India has a wretched Caste system, which has held the poor down for centuries.

 

[Plotinus]

No, not in particular. Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia when they thought Serbia would not do anything to punish the student that assassinated their heir. So technically Austria started it. Then Russia declared war on Austria-Hungary, due to its alliance with Serbia and then Germany mobilized it's forces in defense of it's ally Austria-Hungary and then Britain and France, due to a secret alliance with Russia, declared war on Germany.

It's not that simple: Germany was not obliged to go to war with Austria-Hungary, but basically exploited the opportunity because they wanted to fight. I remember in GCSE History learning the "powder keg" explanation of the causes of WWI, in which no-one really got the blame (except maybe Bismarck for locking everyone into the system of alliances); and then in A Level History they told us to forget all that, and it was Germany's fault after all!

But America is the birthplace of liberalism, which swept across the world. On the other hand, it's hard not to give credit to the rest of Europe for laying the foundation.

I think Europe did more than "lay the foundation" - Europeans invented liberalism and the Americans just used the idea. You won't find many ideas in the Declaration of Independence and similar documents of period that aren't in Locke, for example.

 

[cybrxkhan]

But America is the birthplace of liberalism, which swept across the world. On the other hand, it's hard not to give credit to the rest of Europe for laying the foundation.

the birthplace of liberalism is the rebellious minds that is naturally found in teenagers throughout history dating back to prehistoric times.

 

[dutchking]

I think Europe did more than "lay the foundation" - Europeans invented liberalism and the Americans just used the idea.

Umm...Wouldn't it be fair to say that the first Americans (not natives) were Europeans? And another thing, no one "invented" liberalism, it isn't an object, it is a way of thinking. It can also be an adjective, you could call someone liberal, no one can "invent" an adjective or way of thinking unless you're talking hypothetically...

 

[dcbandicoot]

For me, it is a tie between Greece and Rome at the top. I was torn between America, China, Egypt and Persia for three. After great deliberation, I chose China. I'm surprised at the low vote totals both the Mongols and Egyptians have received.

 

[Plotinus]

Umm...Wouldn't it be fair to say that the first Americans (not natives) were Europeans? And another thing, no one "invented" liberalism, it isn't an object, it is a way of thinking. It can also be an adjective, you could call someone liberal, no one can "invent" an adjective or way of thinking unless you're talking hypothetically...

But the first non-indigenous Americans weren't particularly liberal, were they? In any case, if we're attributing this to Europeans who went to America, then America deserves even less credit for the idea.

I don't see why you can't say that someone "invented" a way of thinking. Material objects are not the only things we "invent"; it's perfectly good English to talk about people "inventing" excuses, doctrines, etc.

 

[Kao'chai]

1. Importance to History
China Silk road , Military ,Invention , Daoism Confusianism
England English Protestanism
Rome( Greece and Egypt are in it ) Lathin Christianity Goverment Architechture wonders of the ancinet world
America Technolies and power at world wars
Mesopatemia Farming Wheel

2. Military Power/Influence
Mongolia , America , Japan ( WW2 )

3. Political Power/Influence
Rome (Republican) Greece (Democracy) Russia (Communism) China

4. Cultural Power/Influence
England , English is the International Language
Spain , Lots of country use Spanish as Official Languange ,Catholicism as state religon .
Arabia , manage to convert the Middle East and Nortern Africa to Islam.

5. Scientific and Innovative Achievements
America ( both now and then )...................ofcourse
Japan , Robotics
China ( then..........they invented the compass gunpowder silk etc)

6. Cultural Longetivity
China 5000 years and still satanding .
Egypt
India

7. Economical Power/Influence
Any European nation .

8. Architectural Achievements
Greece/Rome.....classical .........India/China .........temples........Arabia...

9. Capability to Destroy
Mongolians(medival times) conquered all of Asia
Viking

 

[cybrxkhan]

okay, and now since i'm bored...

1. Importance to History
China - inventor of many things, pretty much lord of all East Asia, blah blah blah

2. Military Power/Influence
America - no need explaning here

3. Political Power/Influence
China - all the known world except Europe used to acknowledge it as superior... until the Europeans came. But until then, that power is more than impressive, its near impossible in the modern day.

4. Cultural Power/Influence
its a tie between China, India, Arabia, and Hellenism for being the most influential of civilizations culturally on the others.

5. Scientific and Innovative Achievements
China - invented something for everyone.

6. Cultural Longetivity
China - its still alive, ha.
Egypt - lived pretty long before it died.
India - its still alive today, too!

7. Economical Power/Influence
America or pre-European world dominative China.

8. Architectural Achievements
Egypt - you see a funny looking huge monument every mile.

9. Capability to Destroy
Mongols or Russians

10. Humanity
probably India.



but otherwise, i realized that the greatest civilization of all time ain't on this poll - its name is ATLANTIS.

 

[dutchking]

But the first non-indigenous Americans weren't particularly liberal, were they? In any case, if we're attributing this to Europeans who went to America, then America deserves even less credit for the idea.

I don't see why you can't say that someone "invented" a way of thinking. Material objects are not the only things we "invent"; it's perfectly good English to talk about people "inventing" excuses, doctrines, etc.

Invention-An invention is an object, process, or technique which displays an element of novelty. An invention may sometimes be based on earlier developments, collaborations or ideas, and the process of invention requires at least the awareness that an existing concept or method can be modified or transformed into an invention. However, some inventions also represent a radical breakthrough in science or technology which extends the boundaries of human knowledge. Legal protection can sometimes be granted to an invention by way of a patent. Source:Wiki...
Notice another thing: they're not saying that there is a technique of thinking, they mean woodworking or a way of making something...
You can't put a patent on a way of thinking, can you? I don't see "way of thinking" anywhere on there. No one "invented" liberalism, it's like saying some one "invented" another way of thinking: "perversion". Or saying that someone "invented" Conservatism. It's BS. No one person can make a new way of thinking and simply say that no one else has ever thought that way before. That's like me thinking in my head:
"Cozy things are nice..."
And calling it a new way of thinking: "Cozyism"...Saying that Europeans "invented" liberalism is stupid. Find me the man who invented liberalism, you could say that a farmer in Inca in south america a thousand years earlier could've invented liberalism by letting his daughter marry some random guy...That's my argument... And another thing: Liberalism is too general a thing to "invent"...

 

[Gilder]

the birthplace of liberalism is the rebellious minds that is naturally found in teenagers throughout history dating back to prehistoric times.

Adolescense in the modern sense is not appliacable to anything pre-1900 (Even this is being generous).

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

1. Importance to History - Britain. I kind of feel this is an overall category as the categories to follow is what makes them important. But Britain was the largest empire in the history of mankind and left a enormous influence scientifically, culturally, economically and politically on every settled continent. The British may not be #1 in all of the following categories, but they are top five in most of them for sure. China would be next, but their influence just wasn't as widespread as the British.
HONOURABLE MENTION: China

2. Military Power/Influence - Mongols. The largest contiguous land empire in history and it was built almost entirely on the back of their army. The most feared warriors of any era.
HONOURABLE MENTION - Rome.

3. Political Power/Influence - Britain. Not only were they a power in Europe, but they controlled the vast majority of Australasia & North America as well, were the dominant power in Africa and held a lot of sway in Asia as well. Only in South America did they have a relatively minor presence.
HONOURABLE MENTION - Russia

4. Cultural Power/Influence - Britain. There is a reason why English is the language that most of the world uses to communicate with each other.
HONOURABLE MENTION - China

5. Scientific and Innovative Achievements - Britain. Home to many of the most influential learned men in history and founding fathers of particular fields, from Newton to Darwin and the homeland of the Industrial Revolution.
HONOURABLE MENTION: United States

6. Cultural Longetivity - China. China's culture has been more or less intact for 5000 years now. Their contemporary Mesopotamian and Egyptian counterparts are long gone, and the Chinese culture pre-dates pretty much everything else.
HONOURABLE MENTION - India.

7. Economical Power/Influence - United States. The most economically powerful nation the world as ever seen. They don't have to conquer nations, they can just buy them out.
HONOURABLE MENTION - The Dutch

8. Architectural Achievements - Rome. Probably the greatest engineers in history, they were able to build things that wouldn't be matched for about 1300 years after the fall of the Western Empire. They can still be found throughout Europe.
HONOURABLE MENTION - Egypt

9. Capability to Destroy - Iberia. They wiped out a whole continent of indigenous people in the greatest disaster in world history. It wasn't intentional, but that doesn't change what it was.
HONOURABLE MENTION - Germany.

10. Humanity - Hebrews. Almost by default. They fought amongst themselves quite a bit, but all things considered, for the most part they just wanted to be left alone in their little corner of the world but kept getting conquered by some imperial power (ex. Egypt, Babylon).
HONOURABLE MENTION - India

 

[Plotinus]

Invention-An invention is an object, process, or technique which displays an element of novelty. An invention may sometimes be based on earlier developments, collaborations or ideas, and the process of invention requires at least the awareness that an existing concept or method can be modified or transformed into an invention. However, some inventions also represent a radical breakthrough in science or technology which extends the boundaries of human knowledge. Legal protection can sometimes be granted to an invention by way of a patent. Source:Wiki...
Notice another thing: they're not saying that there is a technique of thinking, they mean woodworking or a way of making something...
You can't put a patent on a way of thinking, can you? I don't see "way of thinking" anywhere on there. No one "invented" liberalism, it's like saying some one "invented" another way of thinking: "perversion". Or saying that someone "invented" Conservatism. It's BS. No one person can make a new way of thinking and simply say that no one else has ever thought that way before. That's like me thinking in my head:
"Cozy things are nice..."
And calling it a new way of thinking: "Cozyism"...Saying that Europeans "invented" liberalism is stupid. Find me the man who invented liberalism, you could say that a farmer in Inca in south america a thousand years earlier could've invented liberalism by letting his daughter marry some random guy...That's my argument... And another thing: Liberalism is too general a thing to "invent"...

All right! Calm down, and lay off the roll-eyes smiley, which always demeans any argument in which it appears. It's just a word. Use a different one if you like. I still think "invent" is a perfectly respectable word for this meaning (you can certainly patent an idea, and there is such a thing as intellectual property), but if you think otherwise, it doesn't matter. Although I will say that I don't accept Wikipedia as a source for such things.

Nevertheless, I'm puzzled by your claim at the end. Are you saying that new ways of thinking never arise at all? Or only that we can never be certain that a supposedly new way of thinking is really new or not? The latter may perhaps be true; the former seems extremely implausible. If the example is "liberalism" in the sense in which we apply it to Locke, the founders of the US, and so on, then it seems very clear indeed that this was a way of thinking which arose during the Enlightenment. Perhaps elements of it can be traced back earlier than that, but I don't believe you'll find many Locke-style liberals among the medieval Incas. If you think that someone allowing his daughter to marry a random person counts as "liberalism" then you're just using the term far more loosely; clearly when someone claims that liberalism first appeared in early modern Europe or America they're not using the word to mean "letting someone else make a choice". Trying to see where ideas such as this first emerged is one of the ways in which we can assess and evaluate the various civilisations of history, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.

 

[dutchking]

All right! Calm down, and lay off the roll-eyes smiley, which always demeans any argument in which it appears. It's just a word. Use a different one if you like. I still think "invent" is a perfectly respectable word for this meaning (you can certainly patent an idea, and there is such a thing as intellectual property), but if you think otherwise, it doesn't matter. Although I will say that I don't accept Wikipedia as a source for such things.

Nevertheless, I'm puzzled by your claim at the end. Are you saying that new ways of thinking never arise at all? Or only that we can never be certain that a supposedly new way of thinking is really new or not? The latter may perhaps be true; the former seems extremely implausible. If the example is "liberalism" in the sense in which we apply it to Locke, the founders of the US, and so on, then it seems very clear indeed that this was a way of thinking which arose during the Enlightenment. Perhaps elements of it can be traced back earlier than that, but I don't believe you'll find many Locke-style liberals among the medieval Incas. If you think that someone allowing his daughter to marry a random person counts as "liberalism" then you're just using the term far more loosely; clearly when someone claims that liberalism first appeared in early modern Europe or America they're not using the word to mean "letting someone else make a choice". Trying to see where ideas such as this first emerged is one of the ways in which we can assess and evaluate the various civilisations of history, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.

Alright, you win, I'm tired......But I still don't think you can invent ways of thinking...And when you said I used the word loosely, how else am I supposed to talk about a way of thinking? It's every thought that enters the human brain, man nevermind...too freaking confusing...Let's just get back to the thread... Was fun while it lasted...

 

[cybrxkhan]

Adolescense in the modern sense is not appliacable to anything pre-1900 (Even this is being generous).

teenagers are teenagers. hormones and chemicals have remained unchanged for years.

heh. heh???

 

[dutchking]

Wow, I'm surprised with the low Russian vote. They are currently the largest country in the world......twice the size of the runner up, Canada...

 

[West 36]

Wow, I'm surprised with the low Russian vote. They are currently the largest country in the world......twice the size of the runner up, Canada...

That contains a big expanse of nothing, which includes Siberia. They would threaten sending people there for punishment, just because its utterly desolate, every country has its unliked spot, but 2/3 of Russia seems to be that spot. But Russias cool anyway!