What do you think of the quality of OT discussion today?

[Borachio]

And how do you think it might be improved?

How do you rate your own style of posting?

What, without directly criticising anyone, would you like to see less of?

What would you like to see more of?

Would you prefer I hadn't started this thread?

 

[Borachio]

Yeah. Very drole! I see what you did there.

 

[Antilogic]

My posting style runs the range from serious to seriously sarcastic.

 

[Cutlass]

Mostly I feel there's no sense of community here now. So the incentive to post at all is less.

 

[Borachio]

What would promote a sense of community?

 

[Cutlass]

 

[Borachio]

Why do people post at all?

What are the various styles of posting?

I can distinguish 1) one liners, 2) a couple of sparse paragraphs (possibly double-spaced) 3) tight blocks of single-spaced text and 4) vast walls of copy and paste quotes.

Which ones are the easiest to read? And which ones are the ones most likely to sway your opinion on an issue?

Some posts consist mostly of statements. Others ask a lot more questions.

Some are dogmatically sure of their ground. Others less so.

 

[Perfection]

It's about as good as it's always been.

My posts too are about the same quality as they've always been because my decreasing effort and increasing skill counterbalance each other.

 

[CavLancer]

Young people are posting on facebook and other intellectually bankrupt social sites, old folks like myself post less as our vital organs mortify and the grim reaper approaches. Between the young and the old you guys are stuck in an encroaching vacuum of new ideas which comes from a lack of new blood. CFC is like a starving vampire whose life essence is dissipating. Gone are the glory days of sinking its teeth into the Civilized young looking for gaming advice or mods and sucking their lives dry through years of silly arguments about nothing. Seen it before, not pretty. There are skeletons of Civilization websites nearly drained of people littering the ether that someone should just pound a wooden stake in and let dust turn to dust. Like Civilization itself actually. Culture has become a perpetual search for any petty thrill or self adulation combined with escapism, and there really is no escaping our reality is there? "Why do people post at all?" Its a damn good question. On the way to the gallows there's lots of free time to step in a hole and twist an ankle. But! Don't want to get too depressing.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Occasionally Off Topic hosts some very intellectually stimulating discussion. I find myself rarely agreeing with this site's more prolific posters (who -- since the arrival of a certain user in the summer of 2010 -- seem to almost always be put-upon reactionary firebrands) but have to concede that they eloquently or at least provocatively phrase their beliefs.

Then, we have posts like the above, which are just self-righteous, rambling ultimatums. Poo.

 

[CavLancer]

Can't make everyone happy.

 

[Perfection]

Also, I miss the old trolls.

 

[Kennigit]

Bring back a&e and s&t

 

[Phrossack]

And how do you think it might be improved?

How do you rate your own style of posting?

What, without directly criticising anyone, would you like to see less of?

What would you like to see more of?

Would you prefer I hadn't started this thread?

I haven't been around or paying attention all that long, so I can't really say whether it's better or worse than in the past. Some problem posters left, but some returned, while other pillars of the community became problem posters.

My style of posting? It varies from facetious to straightforward to personal to bitter. Depends on whom I'm talking to. I don't always care for my posting style, but at least I've cut back a lot on my snark and sarcasm. Those things rarely result in anything good, just in more bitterness.

Spoiler what I'd like to see less of :

I'd like to see less hostility, deliberate twisting of words, bitterness, nationalism, double standards, sarcasm, and other scourges. Right now, some ethnic groups, races, religions, and nationalities are respected by most posters, while others are by and large seen as fair game. All in the name of "equality" and "social justice," ironically enough.

Many posters see disagreement as a hostile act and respond aggressively; I recall one poster actually saying he was offended when I questioned the viability of colonizing Mars rather than Antarctica.

Many others argue out of reflex. They're used to seeing and fighting certain arguments from certain kinds of people, and they do this so often that the moment they see someone else make an argument that even begins to look like those of their enemies, they assume that this person is one of them and respond with the same blistering, pre-written attack that they always use against their enemies. One notable poster here even admitted he was mostly arguing out of muscle memory. These posters don't bother attempting to read others' posts in detail and addressing the actual points they make; like cavalry horses answering the bugle, their words group themselves automatically into the same dreary pattern. Look like one of their enemies, even slightly, even for a second, and they categorize you as one of them and attack instinctively.

I also get the sense that the posters most vocal about racial, class, and gender/sex equality don't actually care about those issues much anymore, and look at them more as cudgels with which to bludgeon their enemies. Note how eager they are to smear anyone they don't like as a racist sexist classist bigot at every opportunity. The word "smear" is apt, since such accusations, being so damning, are hard to wipe off. They keep throwing these messy, serious accusations around, hoping that at least some of them will stick and leave a lasting stink like curdled milk. Note also how these posters don't actually seem to do anything about inequality, and how their overuse of those accusations cheapens them until eventually they may become meaningless, and you can start to see why these posters are setting their cause back, if indeed it's really their cause. Their actions are inconsistent with those of real, concerned activists, and very consistent with those of lazy slacktivists who see the cause of equality not as a goal but as convenient weapon.

Then you get the posters who are happy to write great big thought-out posts, and who expect others to address them in painstaking detail and nuance, yet at the same time don't bother to extend the same courtesy to others. Instead, they deliberately twist a few of the other poster's words to make them seem ignorant bigots, delete the rest of their argument, and wrap the whole smelly package in a covering of quotation marks.

Then there's the whole mentality that arguments are things which can be won. They can't be won any more than an earthquake can be won. An argument should be seen as an opportunity for each side to learn, and a chance to change one's views. Instead, most if not all of us see arguments as a competition with our image and esteem on the line, and so we stick to untenable positions and don't budge.

Then there are the dozens of pointless little threads centered around easily answered questions and incredibly abstract, disinteresting artsy subjects that few read and even fewer reply to. Add to them all Poland-jackings and you get a hell of a lot of spam. And that's not even counting the Great Walls of Text and those posts that consist entirely of multiple videos, entire movies, miles of demographics charts and maps, and huge citations from books that nobody will read or care about.

I'd like to see more female posters. Perhaps that would make the place a little less vicious, perhaps not. In any case, we'd get fewer male "feminists" telling other males what All the Women want and think, and a better perspective on the subject from actual females. Then again, feminism's such a heated, vicious topic that it might just be best to bury all its threads and never raise the issue ever again. Even so, a bit more diversity couldn't hurt.

And I'm not sure if this falls under PDMA or not, so let me know if it is, but I'd like to see some stricter moderating in WH. That place has the sharpest elbows of them all. It's dominated by an aggressive clique and has a hostile atmosphere that drives out old posters and scares away new ones, leaving it a stale, stagnant echo chamber.

I'm quite glad you started this thread, Borachio! This ought to be stickied, so that the mods and members can check the community's pulse. Right now, that pulse seems to be getting fainter. Members are the lifeblood of the forum, and when its hostile atmosphere and bitter, unproductive arguments cause respected members of the community away, it reduces the quality and quantity of discussion, which further drives away posters.

What would promote a sense of community?

Well, for a start, members of a community are in it together and look out for ways to help each other, not attack each other. A sense of permanence helps keep posters around and makes each one more valued to the community, since nobody cares about posters if they'll be gone in a matter of months or weeks.

 

[Light Cleric]

The thing that makes me really not want to waste my time posting here is the blatant establishment bias, for lack of a better term. If you've been around long enough, you don't have to show respect or explain your positions to anyone. From pretty much the very first thread I posted on in OT I was pretty much given the finger and spit on and it really hasn't changed since. I've seriously looked at threads, thought about posting something factual and said "it's not worth the trouble" because it's going to either get A)Ignored, B)Buried or C)Distorted. I see a handful of people who actually write decent posts, but they usually get buried, intentionally or otherwise, by the poop-slingers.

It's apparently perfectly acceptable to volley posts with like-minded people with insult after insult aimed at one or two people and completely bury anything that was useful. It's also apparently okay to come into threads and just hijack them if you don't like how they're not making your political party look good, which is why I haven't tried to make another thread here. It's apparently okay to bristle at people who challenge you for facts to support your positions as long as your join date is old enough. It's apparently okay to completely distort people's positions so that you can call them a racist, a fascist, a sexist, a communist, or whatever label you desire to slap on them if you just want them to shut up or to make fun of them as long as your join date is old enough. (EDIT: Bonus points if you then get accused of smarm if you point this out.)

I mean frankly if you guys want a circlejerk echo chamber, go for it, but doing so and then getting confused after the fact and wondering where the sense of community is looks pretty asinine.

And yes, I am kind of frustrated/disappointed/dongs. I waded into OT hoping it would be better than your average place on the internet.

 

[JollyRoger]

There is too much smarm here lately.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I think OT isn't as vibrant as it used to be, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It simply is what it ts. I still think it's much better than most of the internet. I've been on forums much worse.

I do agree with Phrossack's hope for more female posters (and ideally a wide variety of them). Or just more variety of posters in general. OT is mostly (middle class?) white dudes from Western countries (no offense to said white dudes, that's just how it is) with a smaller smattering of Hispanic and Asian dudes. I do think we have some decent diversity in regards to non-straight folks, but that's all. More perspectives - not just political ideology, which we (I?) tend to think of - is always nice. But I don't see that changing anytime soon.


Also, is it just me, or do we have more commies here than we used to? (No offense to said commies)

 

[Tarquelne]

I think it's much better than it was say, 6 months ago.

And how do you think it might be improved?

Everyone uses my ignore list. (I started leaning on it quite a bit about, oh, 6 months ago?)

How do you rate your own style of posting?

Piquant.

What, without directly criticising anyone, would you like to see less of?

The people I'm not directly criticizing.

DUH.

What would you like to see more of?

Puns.

Qualifiers.

Defining the significant terms of an argument before page 10, which is where people tend to start bickering about what the words they've been using for the past several pages actually mean.

Obliquity.

Classic sci-fi references.

Gostak.

Would you prefer I hadn't started this thread?

Yes.

Also, is it just me, or do we have more commies here than we used to? (No offense to said commies)

Gotta love 'em. They're right about so many things people are generally wrong about, and where they're wrong, at least they tend to be novel. (I think this comes from the tendency to actually think about their political views rather than learning them from prime time dramas or cable news. So, obviously, if Sorkin actually makes his "The Red Square" mini-series, we can expect the quality of commie posters to decrease.)

 

[Valka D'Ur]

...what I'd like to see less of]I'd like to see less hostility, deliberate twisting of words, bitterness, nationalism, double standards, sarcasm, and other scourges. Right now, some ethnic groups, races, religions, and nationalities are respected by most posters, while others are by and large seen as fair game. All in the name of "equality" and "social justice," ironically enough.

...

...

...

...

Then there's the whole mentality that arguments are things which can be won. They can't be won any more than an earthquake can be won. An argument should be seen as an opportunity for each side to learn, and a chance to change one's views. Instead, most if not all of us see arguments as a competition with our image and esteem on the line, and so we stick to untenable positions and don't budge.

Then there are the dozens of pointless little threads centered around easily answered questions and incredibly abstract, disinteresting artsy subjects that few read and even fewer reply to. Add to them all Poland-jackings and you get a hell of a lot of spam. And that's not even counting the Great Walls of Text and those posts that consist entirely of multiple videos, entire movies, miles of demographics charts and maps, and huge citations from books that nobody will read or care about.

I'd like to see more female posters. Perhaps that would make the place a little less vicious, perhaps not. In any case, we'd get fewer male "feminists" telling other males what All the Women want and think, and a better perspective on the subject from actual females. Then again, feminism's such a heated, vicious topic that it might just be best to bury all its threads and never raise the issue ever again. Even so, a bit more diversity couldn't hurt.

And I'm not sure if this falls under PDMA or not, so let me know if it is, but I'd like to see some stricter moderating in WH. That place has the sharpest elbows of them all. It's dominated by an aggressive clique and has a hostile atmosphere that drives out old posters and scares away new ones, leaving it a stale, stagnant echo chamber.

I'm quite glad you started this thread, Borachio! This ought to be stickied, so that the mods and members can check the community's pulse. Right now, that pulse seems to be getting fainter. Members are the lifeblood of the forum, and when its hostile atmosphere and bitter, unproductive arguments cause respected members of the community away, it reduces the quality and quantity of discussion, which further drives away posters.

Well, for a start, members of a community are in it together and look out for ways to help each other, not attack each other. A sense of permanence helps keep posters around and makes each one more valued to the community, since nobody cares about posters if they'll be gone in a matter of months or weeks.

I agree that all this "Poland" spam outwore its welcome years ago. As Heinlein might say, it's a "funny once," but that's all (reference to The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress when Manny is explaining humor to Mike the computer).

As for winning arguments... hooboy. People have varying ideas of what that means, and people have sometimes told me quite bluntly, "Walk away/go away/shut up, because you can't win this." My response is this: My criteria for "winning" is different from yours. Any time I let someone chase me out of a thread or shut me up in some other way for any reason other than my facts are wrong, that's when I lose. Of course there have been times when I've left a thread because I didn't think it was worth any more of my time, or it took a turn I wasn't interested in or didn't understand. But in that case I've left of my own free will, not because of bullying.

People might benefit from asking themselves just how important it is to be Right About This (whatever "this" might be). There have been times when I've composed a post, and then decided to just not post it. Sometimes continuing an argument is more effort than it's worth.

There is a forum for the "artsy" stuff, but we were told by TPTB that such topics can be posted pretty much anywhere in the Colosseum the poster wishes. My suggestion would be to ask the admins to re-examine that decision if threads about obscure artsy stuff in OT distresses you.

Female posters - yes, please. Since Lucy and Aimee stopped being active here, I've definitely felt a bit lonely and outnumbered more than usual. Plus, when a guy says, "I'd like a woman's opinion on this" and there's only one woman around to give one - and admittedly I don't have a lot of the same perspective that younger women do - the person who asked for the opinion isn't going to get as much of a variety of responses as he would probably like.

Your comment re modding in WH is best brought up in Site Feedback, since Plotinus is the only admin who ever comes to OT and won't necessarily read this thread.

You know what should be stickied? The Olive Branch thread. That way, it would be a more visible reminder that we do have a place for apologies and clearing up misunderstandings and restoring civility when our consciences prompt us to do so.

 

[Gori the Grey]

One thing that I really like about the site is the diversity of topics. This hit me when we were talking about personhood for chimps. I thought to myself, "nowhere else in my life is there any possibility of getting into a conversation about personhood for chimps."

Then there were three threads Please, Don't and Stop, where you had to think of a song title that started with one of those words. So from the serious to the silly.

You have to have a thick, thick skin to participate, because, man, do a lot of you use internet anonymity to be brutal. I do have a thick skin, so that's no problem, but I think it drives away other posters.

I'm with Light Cleric in thinking more thoughtful posts tend to get ignored, or distorted so that they can be attacked, and that gets tiresome. I hadn't linked it with join date. My way of being aware that there are long-timers here is that some of you have a kind of jocular camaraderie with one another that comes from having interacted for years. But I feel I'm starting to establish myself in that way.

What this forum has started to prove to be is a prompt for quick little creative projects. One thread recently provided the pretext for writing both a sonnet and a rap. Another gave me the opportunity to write a little Dr. Seuss like ditty.

I'm with Phrossack in wishing there were more women posters, especially in threads that touch on feminism. In fact, if I ever find a site with the diversity of topics this one has, but an equal gender mix, I'm outta here. Sorry guys.

My posting style is three-sentence long paragraphs separated by a space. Except when it's something else.