wit>trope
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2004
- Messages
- 2,871
Flak said:I think that ethnicity is not a valid definition for belonging to a nation. In fact you sort of state that. There are many notable countries that have strong cultures with mixed ethnic backgrounds: United States, India, South Africa, Malaysia, Canada. Even the United Kingdom has the Scots, Irish, Celts as well the Anglo-Saxons.
I myself am not a white American. My father was half African American and half Native American, my mother white European American (mostly French and Irish). Would you say that I'm less of an American than a Czech is a Czech just because I am not the result of a single ethnicity?
I would have to strongly disagree.
The original question is a difficult one for many people. Consider the situation of the European Jews pre-WWII. You had significant populations of French, German, Polish and Russian Jews. These people certainly were for many many generations contributing members of their respective lands and cultures. So when they were exterminated in Germany, was this a killing Germans or Jews? Or both? The fact that this question is still open to any kind of debate at all exposes the difficulty of trying define one's belonging to a nation.
Flak, in the definition I proposed (I don't know about your discussion partner's definition), ethnicity would play a role in the definition of some nations but not necessarily in the definition of other nations. So, I think you should see that it's not an "all or nothing" thing. Just because race or ethnicity is not a critical or determining factor when it comes to membership in the nation of the United States does not mean that it is not a critical or determining factor when it comes to membership in certain other nations -- such as for example the Kurds in Turkey and Iraq -- they would consider themselves a nation even though they do not have a nation-state. Regarding Jews, According to Judaism, all Jews, wherever they are in the world, belong to the nation of the "children of Israel":
The best explanation is the traditional one given in the Torah: that the Jews are a nation. The Hebrew word, believe it or not, is "goy." We use the word "nation" not in the modern sense meaning a territorial and political entity, but in the ancient sense meaning a group of people with a common history, a common destiny, and a sense that we are all connected to each other. We are, in short, an enormous extended family.
Some Jews don't like to use the word "nation." Jews have often been falsely accused of being disloyal to their own country because of their loyalty to the Jewish "nation." Antisemites routinely accuse Jews of being more loyal to Israel than to their home country. But whatever you want to call it, that sense of nationhood or peoplehood is probably the only thing about Judaism that we can all agree on and that we can all relate to. Anyone who feels any sense of Jewish identity shares that sense of Jewish peoplehood.
When we speak of that nation, however, we do not refer to it as "Judaism." We refer to that nation as "the Jewish people" or "the Children of Israel" (a reference to our patriarch, Jacob, also known as Israel).
This notion of Jews as a nation or people encompasses many of the ideas above. As a nation or people, we share common ideas, ancestry, and culture, but there is also room for diversity in each of these areas. The most important part of being a nation is that sense of interconnectedness.
http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm
Also, many Quebecans consider themselves a nation even though they do not have as yet a fully independent sovereign state.
@eater, you seem to suggest that if someone doesn't consider himself part of a nation, he could not possibly be a member of the nation ... but babies do not consider themselves part of anything as they do not do much considering, yet the parents of these babies and other members of the nation would consider them to be part of the nation. Also even an adult could conceivably consider himself not part of certain nations, while at the same time the communities in these nations would still consider them as part of their nations -- this is something that actually happens without infrequency.