What does the American Conservative stand for anymore?

[Lexicus]

Of course I'm not arguing for 'hierarchy' as the remedy

All societies are structured, for good reason - and relative to the norm, our own society is already way out in left field in terms of individual autonomy. So my question is, when is it enough? At what point can we say "we have enough autonomy now; no need to dissolve any more rules and boundaries"?

If you are not arguing for hierarchy, what exactly are you suggesting we substitute for "individual autonomy"?? If, as you seem to think, we already have enough or too much "individual autonomy", what organizing principle opposed to individual autonomy needs to be balanced with it? Submission, I assume, since that is the only alternative to autonomy - but submission to what, exactly?

the horrors of liberalism.

It's just wild because when I say "the horrors of liberalism" I'm talking about, you know, the slave trade, enclosure, the Satanic mills with children chained to the machines and the Panopticon and the workhouse, and you appear to be talking about the pride parade or whatever.

 

[Mouthwash]

For him it goes well beyond that, he envisions a type of social order with a very strict male-dominated hierarchy. You can see a lot of what he's saying, things like "a world with expectations" and such. He's posted before how he thinks it'd be beneficial for society of women basically didn't have rights, he believes we should know our place as subservient to our male masters. I get a very strong sense from him that he's a frustrated young man who looks back at a time when he would've just been allowed to take everything (and everyone) he wanted because of his default place amongst society's most powerful. He's opposed to peoples' freedoms because it takes away his power.

What penetrating insight! Yes, after doing a bit of introspection I now realize that what I really wanted was to be able to freely rape my female slaves!

Because this:

Is exactly the same as this:

If you are not arguing for hierarchy, what exactly are you suggesting we substitute for "individual autonomy"?? If, as you seem to think, we already have enough or too much "individual autonomy", what organizing principle opposed to individual autonomy needs to be balanced with it? Submission, I assume, since that is the only alternative to autonomy - but submission to what, exactly?

The answer is found in every premodern society in existence. What's the word? Starts with a t, or something.

It's just wild because when I say "the horrors of liberalism" I'm talking about, you know, the slave trade, enclosure, the Satanic mills with children chained to the machines and the Panopticon and the workhouse, and you appear to be talking about the pride parade or whatever.

Actually, more like depression, broken homes, loneliness, suicide, addiction, jealousy, perversion, nihilism - the pride parade is just an enabler for these things.

 

[Lexicus]

The answer is found in every premodern society in existence. What's the word? Starts with a t, or something.

What is the word?

Actually, more like depression, broken homes, loneliness, suicide, addiction, jealousy, perversion, nihilism - the pride parade is just an enabler for these things.

I dunno man the pride parade happened here in DC yesterday and while I didn't attend there was a giant block party in the city, and when I went to a rooftop bar that night there were plenty of people around wearing rainbow colors and having fun.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Tradition is the word

 

[MaryKB]

You don't even know what rape is, it's not just vikings violently carrying screaming women off. You've posted before, and you continue to imply and suggest now, that you'd like to see a world of systemic oppression of women like in Victorian times. Your gender "expectations" revolve around women being subservient to men.

What is the word?

Tyranny. Every pre-modern society was awful and deserves to be buried in our past.

 

[Lexicus]

Tradition is the word

And you can tell what's really meant by "tradition" when he posits it as the solution to an excess of individual autonomy.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Come to think of it, perhaps it was Tranvestite all along.

 

[Lexicus]

What's annoying about MW is that he won't just state the argument plainly because he knows that if he just outright declares that he's for hierarchy and arbitrary traditional authority he can't convince anyone of anything (and again this reflects the absolute cultural power of liberalism, so he is not entirely wrong about that). The thing is, liberalism having "absolute cultural power", meaning a society where people are largely free to determine their own course in life, is so self-evidently superior to a society where people unthinkingly submit to traditional hierarchies that he cannot argue honestly for it.

It is somewhat interesting, because this is a real-time confirmation of what the author of the piece I posted upthread argued. Conservatives must use deception to make reasoned argument not merely difficult but literally unthinkable. They cannot make a reasoned argument for people to submit willingly to these structures, but more importantly the use of reason itself is dangerous because people who can reason and think for themselves might decide they don't like being trapped in those "traditional" structures, and to try to organize new ones that work better.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

It's literally people like you mouthwash that contribute to lgbt people being mistreated y society, why do you think the suicide, Depression and other mental illness rates are so high in the lgbt community?

Here's a hint; it's because society mistreat and others them, because their problems are ignored and swept under the carpet, because families treat their members that are lgbt as if they are somehow intrinsically disordered and you contribute to and enable that.

It's you, you are the reason pride marches exist and must continue to exist.

 

[Hygro]

...or, maybe you're depraved. It's nothing to be ashamed of; I'm depraved as well. It is the result of our modern, hyperstimulated environment.

No, you're confused. I'm telling you this kid isn't doing a sexy-dance, and you're calling me depraved. I'm telling you that your markers for what is sexual is weird growth of thoughts cascading into thoughts without the anchor of experience. So in that sense, you're depraved, yes, but I am not, no. When you get there, you will be amazed how many aesthetic beliefs about sex you have wash away, made irrelevant, by the real thing, which will introduce you to new and whole other things you ignored, dismissed, or never noticed.

Also, hyperstimulated? That's a myth. Watching TV puts you to sleep. Videogames pale in comparison to sports. Why do you think the former is so easy and latter so hard? Real like is 8k and a trillion colors with a zillion button controller with more of every sense, all of which we are shutting down to focus on our screens. We're some of the most understimulated people to ever live. Even reading has gotten too hard for people because it takes so much more effort.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

There's no good way to translate it. In French, they speak of the "dissolution of moral standards".
It's true that modernity affected a lot of those things - frames of reference. Depending where you stand, it might be for the worse or the better.

 

[El_Machinae]

the pride parade is just an enabler for these things.

Maybe. In the way all things are connected. But the pride parade is also a response and pushback to the active oppression of queer people.

The transition to non-oppression will be wobbly. But that's just because humanity is messy. But the pride parade was essential. If you're a critic now, that needs to be balanced with a history of being a supporter.

The battle to reduce oppression of queer people continues to be important even during your lifetime

 

[Hygro]

Maybe.

Dude, no. That litany of addiction, loneliness, and suicide etc, is most prominent in small town conservative middle America among cis-straight aged white men etc. And it's not pride or LGBT rights doing that to them.

 

[Farm Boy]

That's atomization, as you put it. If you aren't rich you aren't rich, if you aren't young you aren't young. If you aren't good looking, you aren't good looking. And if nobody wants anything from you and you don't have a community to contribute to that needs you, well, then you're useless and that ******* in sunglasses and his banker at the beginning of UP is going to come for your house for a buck.

 

[Lexicus]

That's atomization, as you put it. If you aren't rich you aren't rich, if you aren't young you aren't young. If you aren't good looking, you aren't good looking. And if nobody wants anything from you and you don't have a community to contribute to that needs you, well, then you're useless and that ******* in sunglasses and his banker at the beginning of UP is going to come for your house for a buck.

But the solution to this is socialism, not arranged marriages or whatever

 

[El_Machinae]

Dude, no. That litany of addiction, loneliness, and suicide etc, is most prominent in small town conservative middle America among cis-straight aged white men etc. And it's not pride or LGBT rights doing that to them.

Also true. I have queer people who suffer from those conditions as well, and if you put a gun to my head, I could name things in pride culture that don't provide relief and may even discourage activities that would allow relief. It's a concession in the 'everything is connected, yeah' way. I could similarly draw links between those conditions and the vacuousness of icecream flavors, I think

The broader point was that Pride was essential. If someone is wincing at an aspect going too far, they damn well better have been an historical ally.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Something tells me Mouthwash isn't an ally

 

[El_Machinae]

Probably not. But he should probably acknowledge that while complaining about something that was essential in fighting the deliberate oppression of entire groups of people

 

[MaryKB]

Probably not. But he should probably acknowledge that while complaining about something that was essential in fighting the deliberate oppression of entire groups of people

But in his mind, that oppression was a good thing that benefited society ...

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Tired of people assuming bigotry is about being openly bigoted, it can manifest itself in many ways, being intolerant of people existing and wanting to deny the fact they exist is a form of bigotry itself