What if god does not know of you

[timtofly]

God punishes children for the sins of their fathers

This is who I'm supposed to worship? I'd rather have no god...

So you would prefer leaders like Hitler to flourish and you would worship them? The point is to curb human abuse, it has nothing to do with worshipping God. If cruel people had no offspring, then there is nothing to worry about and no one is punished. Even Saddam Hussein's two sons who followed in their father's footsteps to some extent were not immune from becoming victims in his deeds. Was that an act of God, the US, or just coincidence that the children and grandchildren are effected, by the sins of the Fathers?

 

[warpus]

I'm sorry, but that is a horrible justification that we should punish people for the actions of their ancestors.

 

[El_Machinae]

Now, being punished for the actions of your ancestors is natural law. Just ask babies with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. We cannot get around it. Well, we can, and that's to not have kids, but other than that we're always slaves to history. But, I'd never say it's moral law, just natural law.

 

[timtofly]

History seldom justifies itself.

@ Warpus

Who says that humans are doing the punishing?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So you would prefer leaders like Hitler to flourish and you would worship them? The point is to curb human abuse, it has nothing to do with worshipping God. If cruel people had no offspring, then there is nothing to worry about and no one is punished. Even Saddam Hussein's two sons who followed in their father's footsteps to some extent were not immune from becoming victims in his deeds. Was that an act of God, the US, or just coincidence that the children and grandchildren are effected, by the sins of the Fathers?

It's because in the examples you picked leaders. Their sons are often raised in that environment.

But what if I picked another example. A father beating up his kids. In the view you are defending, these kids deserve punishment on top of the abuse they are getting.

You're using rationalisation to justify the unjusifiable, defend the indefensible. It makes the good person you are say horrible things. It genuinly is painful to observe.

 

[warpus]

History seldom justifies itself.

@ Warpus

Who says that humans are doing the punishing?

Let me rephrase: It's a horrible justification that anyone should justifiably punish people for the actions of their ancestors

 

[timtofly]

It's because in the examples you picked leaders. Their sons are often raised in that environment.

But what if I picked another example. A father beating up his kids. In the view you are defending, these kids deserve punishment on top of the abuse they are getting.

You're using rationalisation to justify the unjusifiable, defend the indefensible. It makes the good person you are say horrible things. It genuinly is painful to observe.

Where does it say that child abuse is a requirement for passing on such drastic punishment? As El_Machinae pointed out that abuse can be passed on from generation to generation, unless something happens to change such patterns, but it would not seem that God would need to step in and further it. Humans can handle that on their own. Not every "sin of the Fathers" qualifies for the statement. It seems to be the blatant disregard of God and rejecting him, that leads to the "corruption" of the next few generations. It would not even be indicative of atheism either. There are probably generations of people who would be considered atheist who seemingly have a "blest" existence. I never made the claim that it relates to all sins, that any human imagines as sin, nor most of the commands given by God. It seems to only deal with certain "accomplishments" and there may only be a couple of dozen occurrences since Moses wrote down that statement. I would assume that if a human hates God and hates other humans and puts himself first, then it may effect the people around them as well as their offspring for quite some time depending on how much influence that person had on humanity.

Let me rephrase: It's a horrible justification that anyone should justifiably punish people for the actions of their ancestors

I am not justifying anything. I was merely pointing out facts and questioning Berzerker on who he worships. I do not worship God because he messes with people's lives. Neither do I worship in fear that God is going to punish me or any one else for that matter. If it happens it happens, and there is little that any one can do to change any facts. It would seem to me that if humans worship exploitation of others, they or their descendants are going to live out the consequences of those actions one way or another. I may be wrong, but I don't see how God endorses slavery, because we see how bad slavery has affected the way humans live. IMO slavery would be one of those "sins" that God allows it's effect on humans for generations. Yet it seems that humans cannot even learn from it's effects, and continue making slaves of other humans. I do not see how God would tell people that slavery is ok, when we can clearly see that it is not.

 

[Berzerker]

How about god who as an alpha and omega of everything views socalled sins and evil as a lesser truth developing through his self-created game into greater perfection?

What you can view as a records of folly and sufering is just another form of Gods transcendental delight in action.

God is imperfect or just his creation? I'd like to think "life" is a progression but I dont think a "god" responsible for all of existence would condemn millions to serve as cannon fodder for mass murderers if this greater perfection was designed for the enlightenment of the victims too. Or is this about reincarnation in which these victims will have or had many chances to exist and we all end up being victims (and murderers?) sooner or later?

So you would prefer leaders like Hitler to flourish and you would worship them? The point is to curb human abuse, it has nothing to do with worshipping God. If cruel people had no offspring, then there is nothing to worry about and no one is punished. Even Saddam Hussein's two sons who followed in their father's footsteps to some extent were not immune from becoming victims in his deeds. Was that an act of God, the US, or just coincidence that the children and grandchildren are effected, by the sins of the Fathers?

God said he would punish the descendants of people who hate him and follow other gods. He did not say its a shame lousy parents negatively effect their children. Why would I worship Hitler when I dont want to worship the god responsible for him?

I was merely pointing out facts and questioning Berzerker on who he worships.

I worship the golf gods

I may be wrong, but I don't see how God endorses slavery.....

I do not see how God would tell people that slavery is ok, when we can clearly see that it is not.

Its one of those punishments for the descendants of fathers who hate God... I'm sure the Bible has examples of God instructing his chosen people to slaughter and enslave people living in their way.

But I dont wanna get off track into a debate about the God of the Bible, observing "nature" does not give me reason to worship it's god either. I mean, I'm happy to be alive and I'm grateful for existing, but I cant design a system of morals based on nature (and it's god). Life is brutal, maybe it has to be to survive in such a hostile environment.

 

[warpus]

I am not justifying anything. I was merely pointing out facts and questioning Berzerker on who he worships.

Okay, but he was all "I can't worship someone who punishes people for things they didn't do" and you said "Yeah, but Hitler"

To me it sounded like you were justifying the worship of God by pointing out that hey, sometimes kids of evil people end up being evil too. And sometimes is good enough for you. I think that's a lousy standard and that's why I said what I said

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

God is imperfect or just his creation? I'd like to think "life" is a progression but I dont think a "god" responsible for all of existence would condemn millions to serve as cannon fodder for mass murderers if this greater perfection was designed for the enlightenment of the victims too. Or is this about reincarnation in which these victims will have or had many chances to exist and we all end up being victims (and murderers?) sooner or later?

God is whole. It doesnt have to achieve anything. But I think that doesnt mean It cant be dynamic or expanding force. Its creation cant be but a stamp of Itself so it posseses in it this wholeness and perfection no matter haw marvelously veiled.
Are you yourself a "cannon fodder"? Well, most people are not. Man suffers and dies - but is it the end of story? Arent mass murderes themselves just a cannon fodders and channels of forces existing within humanity released through them? There are no victims becouse there cant be any sacrifice. From human pov surely. All your life is a sacrifice. Everything on Earth in every moment is making sacrifice. If there was no sacrifice of generations before us we wouldnt be here but if all is essentially one who is serving whom? You are both the murderer and the victim. Mother and child. God and man.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It amazes me how people can make such statements with such an air of certainty.

Does the possibility you're wrong enter the equation? If so, shouldn't you be a little more cautious with such statements? If not .... not even going to ask. I can't imagine that possibility.

 

[Kyriakos]

@Mecha: Some do seem to have a far harder life than others, though. Eg people with Elephantiasis. Not that people have to suffer from such issues or miss limbs and so on, so as to be pretty miserable. For example i regard myself as (supposedly) pretty "lucky" in most aspects i care about. I still was in major depression for 2 decades. Others even kill themselves.

It does seem that our world is generating a massive amount of pain. Vicious circle is probably mostly to blame, along with greedy and self-loathing or misanthropic (or both) people in power.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

It amazes me how people can make such statements with such an air of certainty.

Does the possibility you're wrong enter the equation? If so, shouldn't you be a little more cautious with such statements? If not .... not even going to ask. I can't imagine that possibility.

The possibility that I didnt describe the Truth is absolutely certain since I just philosophised some fundamental spiritual truths in the post above and the Truth itself cant be found on the intelectual level. However from my perspective its closer to Truth then any other such way of thinking I have so far came across.

@Mecha: Some do seem to have a far harder life than others, though. Eg people with Elephantiasis. Not that people have to suffer from such issues or miss limbs and so on, so as to be pretty miserable. For example i regard myself as (supposedly) pretty "lucky" in most aspects i care about. I still was in major depression for 2 decades. Others even kill themselves.

It does seem that our world is generating a massive amount of pain. Vicious circle is probably mostly to blame, along with greedy and self-loathing or misanthropic (or both) people in power.

Relativity is the order of the day. If your dominat hand is right its proably going to make more work in the span of your life than the left one but where is the injustice?
If you can look at it from little higher point of view the truth appears different - sometimes entirely. The usual human judgment mainly based in egocentric pov with the mass of desires to fulfill is something quite natural but very far from what human being is capable of achieving. Some people have achieved great feats through great sacrifices but we are inclined only to see the whipecream on the cake. Becouse of our limited understanding we appreciate human beings and the world in peculiar superficial way. Somebody may suffer but who says that by handling this suffering isnt performing a great feat?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

What is a fundamental spiritual truth? And what's the difference between truth and Truth?

These to relate the possible need for cautious statements.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

What is a fundamental spiritual truth? And what's the difference between truth and Truth?

These to relate the possible need for cautious statements.

Some examples of fundamental spiritual truths: there is one Source, we are all part of that Source,etc.

I dont know what you had for breakfast. You know this truth. Its something mundane and unimportant.
But Truth is truth about existence from most encompassing point of view, the ultimate Truth.

 

[JohannaK]

Translation: truth are actual facts of everyday life, Truth is speculation about metaphysic questions.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Translation: truth are actual facts of everyday life, Truth is speculation about metaphysic questions.

Question: is an existence of an atom actual fact in your life or methaphysical speculation?

 

[JohannaK]

The existence of matter is not a metaphysical question by definition.

 

[Darkflight]

I can't be bothered to even try to understand this discussion, so I'll just leave my two cents:

No diety can exist that both desires or requires my worship and deserves it. I've heard alot of concepts of gods where I would rather go to hell or whatever that gods equivalent is then worship that god, and I have heard about a lot of gods where my only thought was "this god isn't relevant". But I have never heard of a god where there was any reason to spend time and energy on doing anything special because of his/hers/its existence. And so far I have never heard a concept of a religion that was at the very least plausible without it beeing so vague as to be meaningless.

Ultimately I think that gods existence or lack thereof is irrelevant.

 

[JohannaK]

Here is a man with interesting ideas. I would really enjoy it if you could bother joining the discussion. Although I assure you that you would be just wasting your time.