What if your boy wants to be a girl?

Thanks for posting the article, Novakart - read right through it, very interesting stuff.
I find Kenneth Zucker's viewpoint most convincing though:
Zucker has compared young children who believe they are meant to live as the other sex to people who want to amputate healthy limbs, or who believe they are cats, or those with something called ethnic-identity disorder. “If a 5-year-old black kid came into the clinic and said he wanted to be white, would we endorse that?” he told me. “I don’t think so. What we would want to do is say, ‘What’s going on with this kid that’s making him feel that it would be better to be white?’”

I mean, transgender people are obviously messed up - they either need their body "fixed" to match their identity, or their identity "fixed" to match their body - and if the latter is found possible, it seems like less intrusive option.
 
Being transgendered and feeling like you are in the wrong body does not "go away".

I doubt that count for 8 year old children. They are not really transgender. A transgender is someone with a developed sexuallity, who is aware of his gender. Small children have completly different motives ( at least those I know of ) for such wishes.

As I said, my sister just didn't wanted to be different from her brothers. Now she is a happily married mother of two children.

If someone have such wishes when he/she is 14 or older, then this is a different story
 
Welcome Yeekim, I'm glad someone was interested in it. I found it to be very interesting too.

I certainly understand your point, I sometimes wonder if it's better for transgender people to just accept how they were born because for most of them they don't closely resemble the sex they want to be, I think especially men who want to be women. A transgender woman won't be accepted by most people as a woman. Still, I think some of them just don't feel complete as a person unless they become who they really want to be.

MRM, I think your sister's situation was different. Did she insist on people using "he" when talking about her? Always wearing boy's clothes? Did she choose a boy's name?

It is harder to tell with girls because it's much more accepted for a girl to be boyish. I kind of wonder why that is. Do people find femininity degrading? Weak? Less worthy than masculinity?
 
It is harder to tell with girls because it's much more accepted for a girl to be boyish. I kind of wonder why that is. Do people find femininity degrading? Weak? Less worthy than masculinity?

Of course, what do we do when we insult someone as weak? Refer to them as girly, sissy, call them a (genital reference), or call them gay, fag or whatever, basically characteristics that don't correspond with traditional heterosexual masculinity, so things which are considered weak.
 
I doubt that count for 8 year old children. They are not really transgender. A transgender is someone with a developed sexuallity, who is aware of his gender. Small children have completly different motives ( at least those I know of ) for such wishes.

As I said, my sister just didn't wanted to be different from her brothers. Now she is a happily married mother of two children.

If someone have such wishes when he/she is 14 or older, then this is a different story

So why do many young Transgendered children claim that they knew and felt that they were "in the wrong body"?
 
What if your boy wants to be a girl?

I wouldn't give him a hard time about it - they're going to face enough problems in life without me making it worse. That said, I wouldn't assist them financially with a sex-change operation or anything like that in any way - I think that should be of their own doing, when they're adults.
 
delete (no msg)
 
The real fascists are those who want me to pay for individuals to go through with this.

If you don't believe in a public health system, that's a matter for an "in defense of propertarianism" thread because it is a much more general topic than transsexuality in particular. Unless of course, you do believe in public healthcare but make an exception for sex reassignment in particular. In which case you would need to justify your decision to discriminate against people who need that treatment in particular as opposed to everything else.

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Personally I have a hard time seeing how anyone could include their biological sex as an important part of their self identity (anymore than skin pigmentation or whether you've got hitchiker's thumbs should), but if a person perceives it as so important to her/his happiness it's not my place to judge. As a libertarian I believe people should be free to pursue their happiness, and positive vs negative liberties are an arbitrary distinction; society exists for the purpose of bettering the lives of its constituent individuals and if sex reassignment can better a person's life then it is society's obligation to make it available.
 
Personally I have a hard time seeing how anyone could include their biological sex as an important part of their self identity (anymore than skin pigmentation or whether you've got hitchiker's thumbs should)

Really? Seriously? Or are you being sarcastic? Because this boggles my mind, how could your race, gender, or sexual orientation NOT be integral to your identity given the nature of our society? We don't exist in a vacuum.
 
No, I would say this is a difference between 12 years olds and 18 year olds and even 14 year olds.
And yet some 12 years have consciously and actively pursued a medical transition. :dunno:

I think just about any serious kickboxer would agree that those terms apply to them.
Even if that were so, they would not feel a serious and crippling dissassociation with their own body if they failed to practice kickboxing, would they? :huh:

Huh...I stand corrected. A more reasonable solution.
Quite possibly. :think:

You know, knowledge of transsexuality - especially the neurobiology thereof - is not common in society. For most people, outside of sex organs, the strongest known correlate of sexual behaviour are the sex hormones. This is twice now in the thread where your response is "lern moar". That doesn't help, because they don't know what you know, and they don't easily have a way of learning more on the topic. They're especially not going to learn more on the topic if they're merely condescended to.
Fair point. :undecide:

Personally I have a hard time seeing how anyone could include their biological sex as an important part of their self identity...
Well, strictly speaking, transgenderism and transsexualism are distinct, it simply happens that the latter inevitably comes with the former- transsexual people are, at least as far as I know, always transgendered, either adopting the expected gender of their new anatomy, or adopting a genderqueer identity.
Transsexualism, rather than being an issue of social or personal identity, as transgenderism is, is an issue of identification with ones own anatomy.

I mean, transgender people are obviously messed up - they either need their body "fixed" to match their identity, or their identity "fixed" to match their body - and if the latter is found possible, it seems like less intrusive option.
The assumption here seems to be that the body somehow dictates the proper nature of the mind, rather than vice-versa, which doesn't strike me as a view that holds much respect for the individual. This may be broadly true from a purely scientific perspective, but from a social one it is simply not conductive to constructing an inclusive society. I would suggest instead that transsexual people should not be viewed as having improperly formed minds, but improperly formed bodies.

Or, we could go around reprogramming people's brains until they think as we would prefer them to. Decades of Soviet rule, it seems, has made some impression on you. :mischief:
 
So what is the cause of this phenomenon? Do people think it's been on the upswing lately or just less repressed?
 
So what is the cause of this phenomenon? Do people think it's been on the upswing lately or just less repressed?
It seems quite likely, given the great variety of gender expression throughout human history, that the increasing visibility of transgenderism and transsexuality is simply the result of Western culture beginning to come to terms with it. Trans identities are only really a novelty to our society, not to humanity as a whole.
 
Considering that hormone treatments, sex change operations etc. are pretty recent inventions I think that explains it.

Transgender people have been a part of many societies throughout history such as:

In India: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)
About the eunuchs in India of which there are an estimated 2 million today.

Native Americans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winkte
I had always heard they were called Berdache but apparently that term is no longer preferred.
 
Even if that were so, they would not feel a serious and crippling dissassociation with their own body if they failed to practice kickboxing, would they? :huh:
No, they would probably feel a crippling disassociation with themselves if they did, to the extent that the dissassociation that goes with being Transgendered is 'crippling.'

EDIT: I would like to hear your thoughts on the comparison with Body Integrity Identity Disorder and Otherkin.
 
Considering that hormone treatments, sex change operations etc. are pretty recent inventions I think that explains it.

Transgender people have been a part of many societies throughout history such as:

In India: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)
About the eunuchs in India of which there are an estimated 2 million today.

Native Americans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winkte
I had always heard they were called Berdache but apparently that term is no longer preferred.
It's actually fascinating to read into the variety of forms of gender expression found throughout human history. They extend far beyond that accepted in the West- which is, traditionally, unusually narrow-minded in regards to both sexuality and gender expression- and encompass a surprising range of expression, limited not just to m-to-f or f-to-m gender transition, but a variety of genderqueer, polygender and gender fluid identities as well. In some cases, they are even attributed a spiritual value and so greater social status- as in many indigenous American cultures, where bigendered people act as shamans and other spiritual leaders- challenging the idea that gender transgession represents any self-evidently "wrongness" in human society.

One thing that seems to be a recurring feature in traditions of trans womanhood or feminine third genders is that they allow an expression of same-sex attraction for men in cultures which do not accept homosexuality or bisexuality, but do not proscribe same-sex intercourse per se. (It seems to echo, to some extent, a recurring perception in many cultures that only the bottoming partner in male same-sex intercourse is emasculated, as they are taking on the "feminine" role of being penetrated, while the topping role is essentially the same as in opposite-sex intercourse.) I've heard it suggested that it acts as a sort of semi-conscious alliance between non-heterosexual men and trans women (and other male bodied feminine trans people) in conservative cultures which allows them both a greater expression of their sexuality and gender identity.

No, they would probably feel a crippling disassociation with themselves if they did, to the extent that the dissassociation that goes with being Transgendered is 'crippling.'
I think that you either over-estimate the depth of conviction felt by child amateur kickboxers, under-estimate the depth of conviction felt by trans people, or live in a parallel universe in which Ong Bak is actually true. :mischief:

I would like to hear your thoughts on the comparison with Body Integrity Identity Disorder and Otherkin.
Well, I'm given to understand that studies of transsexual neurobiology- as mentioned by El_Machinae earlier- are suggesting that transsexual people are, in fact, a form of intersex person, possessing mental architecture similar to that of the opposite sex, which, for whatever reason, leads their brain to expect a body which is not there. This could lead to a mental condition similar to BIID, I suppose- I do not pretend for a second to know much about the details! :p- but if it does indeed have objective biological origins, rather than the primarily or purely psychological ones which I am given to understand are associated with BIID, it seems that the proper thing to do is treat the mis-matched body as the problem, rather than the mind.

As for Otherkin... Well, if I understand properly, the Otherkin, as well as those furries with a more literal understanding of the "fursona" (of which I believe the Otherkin are essentially a breakaway current?) don't believe themselves to be animals, mythical creatures, etc. in quite the same literal and immediate sense that transsexual people believe themselves to be a sex other than which they were born (especially given the aforementioned neurobiological issues),but to have the spiritual or otherwise immaterial "essence" of the creature in question; that they do not have the same disassociation with their physical body, but, rather, see it as a sort of material host. My pet theory is that it reflects some innate resonance that shamanic or totemtic practices have with humans, expressed in clumsy and sometimes ill-considered ways. Having a slightly tree huggish side to me that I don't exhibit here very much, I will admit to being relatively open-minded about such things, although I must admit that the particular practices of the people in question often strike me as somewhat self indulgent. ;)
 
I think that you either over-estimate the depth of conviction felt by child amateur kickboxers, under-estimate the depth of conviction felt by trans people, or live in a parallel universe in which Ong Bak is actually true. :mischief:
I think I have a little more experience with them, in this case.
And I never specified children. If an adult told me that he was serious about it, I'd tell him Shin Hardening (which can result in circulation problems in the legs later in life) is an absolute necessity. If a child asked about it, I'd strongly discourage them, no matter how serious they seemed.
 
Fundamentalist Christianity is not Christianity the way Jesus wanted it.
 
I think I have a little more experience with them, in this case.
And I never specified children. If an adult told me that he was serious about it, I'd tell him Shin Hardening (which can result in circulation problems in the legs later in life) is an absolute necessity. If a child asked about it, I'd strongly discourage them, no matter how serious they seemed.
Well, I'm open to the idea that an adult can have such a conviction, but I would suggest that this is acquired, rather than innate (albeit quite possibly acting as an expression of some more innate compulsion). As such, I do not think that it can be very easily compared with a conviction which is a product of neurological fact, as transsexualism is now believed to be. (Which I mention in the edit of my last post, but too late for you too have seen.)

Basically, nobody is born a kickboxer, while people are indeed born transsexual.
 
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