What is a good wage?

[Hygro]

That’s salary not total compensation. Senior google developers will be making more than half a million, but their salaries will be close to 200k. Like our salaries look high but nothing to write home about. But the stock you get paid for the majority of it is worth much more.

I suppose you could say living in Sweden gives you x amount total compensation as well, in a non literal sense.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Latin America is very large and economically and demographically diverse and it is inadvisable to generalize on the basis of one single country. Hell even within Chile there are large striations of circumstance.

 

[Gorbles]

That’s salary not total compensation. Senior google developers will be making more than half a million, but their salaries will be close to 200k. Like our salaries look high but nothing to write home about. But the stock you get paid for the majority of it is worth much more.

I suppose you could say living in Sweden gives you x amount total compensation as well, in a non literal sense.

As a software developer in the UK, my salary is my compensation currently. Been that way for a decade now. I know the Bay Area kinda distorts every single optic possible around tech, welfare, pay and etc, but you really need to stop and consider that that isn't the reality everywhere else.

(not that I can't get stock options here in the UK market, but the spread of jobs is very different, and I really don't want to go into fintech)

tl;dr: the Bay Area serves not just as a startup generator and investment incubator, but it holds the aggregate history, wealth and capital of most of the world's well-known tech giants. It distorts the curve, generally. Working from home hasn't really caught up either, because these places tend to have whole Things about office culture (not necessarily good).

 

[Hygro]

Latin America is very large and economically and demographically diverse and it is inadvisable to generalize on the basis of one single country. Hell even within Chile there are large striations of circumstance.

Funny you should mention Chile, too. I just spoke with my firm about a transfer to Chile like 45 min ago, they said they would only do longer term and I would have to take the pay down there. It's about $40k for an engineer in Santiago. I am mostly dissuaded. It's obviously much cheaper there, so that money would go a long way, and I can come back and get higher pay here any time. But the CoL reduction is unlikely to make up for it. Still, for the sake of living life, it could be cool.

 

[Hygro]

As a software developer in the UK, my salary is my compensation currently. Been that way for a decade now. I know the Bay Area kinda distorts every single optic possible around tech, welfare, pay and etc, but you really need to stop and consider that that isn't the reality everywhere else.

(not that I can't get stock options here in the UK market, but the spread of jobs is very different, and I really don't want to go into fintech)

tl;dr: the Bay Area serves not just as a startup generator and investment incubator, but it holds the aggregate history, wealth and capital of most of the world's well-known tech giants. It distorts the curve, generally. Working from home hasn't really caught up either, because these places tend to have whole Things about office culture (not necessarily good).

Yeah. It's different in different places. Obviously I stopped and considered this isn't the reality everywhere, that's the point of the thread and why I'm speaking geographically We are literally arguing the differences of wages vs geography within the software engineering industry. Refer to OP: he's a SWE in Sweden saying Bay Area SWEs are, after all considerations, not getting paid as well as he is.

 

[Gorbles]

Yeah. It's different in different places. Obviously I stopped and considered this isn't the reality everywhere, that's the point of the thread and why I'm speaking geographically We are literally arguing the differences of wages vs geography within the software engineering industry. Refer to OP: he's a SWE in Sweden saying Bay Area SWEs are, after all considerations, not getting paid as well as he is.

Yeah, I think (and I could be wrong) that the COL in the Bay Area is what takes most of the on-the-surface-of-it silly wages and drags them back down to average, or even below that. Not half a mil or whatever, or however many hundred k, that's obviously a lot nomatter how much it tends up getting taxed, or how much houses cost. But the inference is "see six figures, assume it's good", when the reality in the Bay Area is half of the time you're going to struggle to pay rent on that.

 

[Denkt]

From what I can tell, americans seems to be pretty poorly compensated, looking how top 10% or top 20% is not very interesting, I've seen software developers in USA that are homeless, talked to people who work way more than me while sounding significantly poorer than me even if on paper they may earn a lot more, which mean you can't look at just wages and draw conclusions, things like the difference in college cost, rent or difference in infrastructure can make a massive difference and seems to make USA significantly poorer than it is on paper compared to other countries, especially if you look how average people live, not surprising USA is significantly behind in stuff like life expectency compared to the top performers.

It is not like top 10% is doing poorly in other countries either, like my grandparents on my mother sides own two houses, one in Sweden and one in Spain which they spend a lot of time in, my father and his familiy own a house on an island and things like that and overall it seems people no matter their wealth have worse life expectency in USA than in many other countries, not just the poor live shorter but from what I understand the rich also have worse life expectency than the rich in some other countries.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Yes, the US is a terrible place to live and work and over rated. It is a huge and unwieldy country that is a mess politically. The list of bad things about the US is very long. Life here is all about suffering. Best you stay away unless your visit is a short one.

 

[stfoskey12]

The thing about the US is we have a very prosperous upper-middle class, and a lower class that struggles a lot, in part due to poor worker's rights situations in a lot of places. If you can get a good technical job, you'll likely do just fine for yourself, but there are a ton of jobs in other industries that are poorly paid as well. I'm 24, and I know people my own age who make $75-150K a year and have already bought a house. I also know people my age who are struggling to make ends meet.
The main problems, IMO, are the high costs of education, healthcare, and (in the desirable parts of the country) housing. Housing is still relatively cheap in Oklahoma because we don't have a lot of tech industry jobs and we don't have the same nimby issues places like California have.

Edit to add: anything above $50-60K a year is decent in Oklahoma. I know professors who make $100-150K a year who live in big houses in nice neighborhoods.

 

[Hygro]

Yeah, I think (and I could be wrong) that the COL in the Bay Area is what takes most of the on-the-surface-of-it silly wages and drags them back down to average, or even below that. Not half a mil or whatever, or however many hundred k, that's obviously a lot nomatter how much it tends up getting taxed, or how much houses cost. But the inference is "see six figures, assume it's good", when the reality in the Bay Area is half of the time you're going to struggle to pay rent on that.

I don't know anyone struggling to pay rent on 6 figures. But it will be half of your take home pay. If you can live on $2500 a month of post-tax. post-health insurance, non-rent expenses, you won't be struggling. If you eat out every meal, which means enough to gain weight and exercise on two meals a day, that's $30 for food a day. If you cook, game on, now you're rich.

Swap rent for my coding bootcamp expenses, this is my situation. I just paid off my credit card debt and made a big car repair in the past two months. By January or February I will be saving money. I'm also below 6 figures.

Obviously a single earning household at exactly $100,000 with a spouse and 3 kids is going to be a squeeze. But that $100k for the SWE is entry level! Startups are always begging for anyone with experience and pay more than anything entry level. And lots of people are surviving just fine here on $50k.

 

[Lexicus]

I'd rather be poor almost anywhere in Europe than poor in the US though.

 

[schlaufuchs]

I'd rather be poor almost anywhere in Europe than poor in the US though.

Rather be middle class over there too. Really only a tiny handful of areas in this country I’d be cool with living in if I had any kind of say in the matter

 

[El_Machinae]

We could post net migrations between the two economies to see what people's implicit bets are when it comes to preference.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Not talking about other people dude

But aren’t you Canadian? Why do you care about this ******** country?

 

[Hygro]

I'd rather be poor almost anywhere in Europe than poor in the US though.

No doubt.

 

[Lexicus]

Rather be middle class over there too. Really only a tiny handful of areas in this country I’d be cool with living in if I had any kind of say in the matter

There's a lot of car dependence in Europe too sadly.

 

[schlaufuchs]

There's a lot of car dependence in Europe too sadly.

At least the needle seems to be moving over there. We’re still, with very few exceptions, stuck in a perpetual “just one more lane bro” loop over here, and the state of passenger rail infrastructure and rolling stock, to say nothing of high speed, is simply woeful. We’re at least 50 years behind, and average speed and headways *in this country* were better 100 years ago compared to today.

 

[DaggerDigwillow]

Really depends on a multitude of factors but regarding the rat race much like life itself the race is ultimately with yourself.

Studies show that after about $60k per year happiness, quality of life, and work satisfaction have no significant increase. Billionaires don’t live much better than suburban moms. The big difference is social status dopamine response which is very important if you are one of the tiny percentage of people who demand to be on the top of society. Since you are asking I assume you are not one of those people.

In my own experience I’ve lived as a homeless bum some years and other years working 24/7 making over 500k a year. In both cases so long as my basic needs were met I didn’t see much of a difference in my life. Most of my true satisfaction or misery in life has been derived from my success or failure in relationships and sense of purpose particularly when serving others.

I’ll make somewhere around 350 this year, have unlimited soft drinks, coffee, snacks, most meals provided and pick my own work location/schedule/hours with unlimited time off per year full access 24/7 hr gym /showers (I had to fight for this though) provided and access to free massage therapy though admittedly I’ve never used it. I have decent medical/dental insurance but pretty terrible vision coverage. My other benefits in LI, legal and LTD, STD are available for reasonable cost but I don’t use them. I love my job, love the people I work with and love the people and organizations I serve. Despite all this there are still people I work with who hate their the job and the turn over is surprisingly high. I work far below my educational qualifications and spend most of my time honestly reading and studying both on and off the clock.

Other factors that play an important role in my work decisions include that I’ve never carried debt, I own my own cars and houses outright, and responsible for my spouse children. I’m content in a McMansion or a homeless shelter of which I’ve done both more than once. It really is just about what you need or want in life.

As cliché as it is to say family, health, and purpose are FAR more important than my gross income on a tax return.

 

[Denkt]

Rather be middle class over there too. Really only a tiny handful of areas in this country I’d be cool with living in if I had any kind of say in the matter

Being middle class in USA seems pretty terrible compared to what we get in Sweden and the difference between poor seems even more extreme. I think upper middle class and rich probably also are better of in Sweden simply because the country overall seems more functional and developed and probably still spend less time on working and have better life expectency. There are about twice the number of $ billionaires per capita in Sweden and children have something like 75% chance to earn more than their parents with overall net increase in incomes for all deciles since the 90s.

Obviously a single earning household at exactly $100,000 with a spouse and 3 kids is going to be a squeeze. But that $100k for the SWE is entry level! Startups are always begging for anyone with experience and pay more than anything entry level. And lots of people are surviving just fine here on $50k.

Because the areas you tend to earn $100,000 is much more expensive than the areas people tend to earn $50k so overall what people may afford can be pretty similar. Seems like you need to earn very well in USA compared to other countries in order to support a family, probably because things like childcare and college is extreamly expensive in USA compared to other countries.

 

[aelf]

Really depends on a multitude of factors but regarding the rat race much like life itself the race is ultimately with yourself.

Studies show that after about $60k per year happiness, quality of life, and work satisfaction have no significant increase. Billionaires don’t live much better than suburban moms. The big difference is social status dopamine response which is very important if you are one of the tiny percentage of people who demand to be on the top of society. Since you are asking I assume you are not one of those people.

In my own experience I’ve lived as a homeless bum some years and other years working 24/7 making over 500k a year. In both cases so long as my basic needs were met I didn’t see much of a difference in my life. Most of my true satisfaction or misery in life has been derived from my success or failure in relationships and sense of purpose particularly when serving others.

I’ll make somewhere around 350 this year, have unlimited soft drinks, coffee, snacks, most meals provided and pick my own work location/schedule/hours with unlimited time off per year full access 24/7 hr gym /showers (I had to fight for this though) provided and access to free massage therapy though admittedly I’ve never used it. I have decent medical/dental insurance but pretty terrible vision coverage. My other benefits in LI, legal and LTD, STD are available for reasonable cost but I don’t use them. I love my job, love the people I work with and love the people and organizations I serve. Despite all this there are still people I work with who hate their the job and the turn over is surprisingly high. I work far below my educational qualifications and spend most of my time honestly reading and studying both on and off the clock.

Other factors that play an important role in my work decisions include that I’ve never carried debt, I own my own cars and houses outright, and responsible for my spouse children. I’m content in a McMansion or a homeless shelter of which I’ve done both more than once. It really is just about what you need or want in life.

As cliché as it is to say family, health, and purpose are FAR more important than my gross income on a tax return.

Stunning and brave.