What is Britishness?

[Traitorfish]

Two things are happening in Britain over the next few sixth months. The first is the European election, in which UKIP are predicted to take away the lion's share of British seats. The second is the Scottish independence referendum, in which the "Yes" vote currently polls at 39%.

What does "Britishness" mean, in light of these coming events? UKIP believe in a nativist, implicitly ethnic Britishness, a Britishness which is basically inherited, and at best assimilated into. The SNP, in contrast, argue for a largely voluntaristic Britishness, which Scots are both able and entitled to refuse. Most Britons occupy a position which is in some respects civic and voluntary, in some respects cultural and inherited. But, despite the appearance of consensus implied by flag-kitsch and appeals to "One Nation", how it all works, what it actually means to be British, remains pretty ambiguous. Appeals are made to culture, history or language, but rarely in a manner which places "Britain" in a clear relationship to the national or ethnic identities of the UK's inhabitants.

Worth considering is the relationship between Britishness and Englishness. Many in Scotland and Wales feel that "Britain" is too readily conflated with "England", not only by those outside of the UK, but by the English themselves. At the same time, it has been found that while white Britons in England tend to identify themselves as "English" either primarily or equally with "British", non-white Britons will tend to identify themselves as "British" and only secondarily if at all as "English"; this stands in contrast to Scotland, where both white and non-white people identify as "Scottish", either primarily or alongside "British". This unclear relationship between Englishness and Britishness provides yet another source of ambiguity.

So, what are we to make of this? Is this ambiguity a new one, or simply one that has been brought into sharper relief with the decline of the Empire? Is "Britishness" on the way out, or can a greater clarity be achieved? What is the relationship between Britishness and ethnic or racial identity? I don't pretend to know the answers to these questions; what does CFC think?

 

[Oruc]

Britishness is dead

 

[Lillefix]

Can I answer with more questions?

Is Britishness different from Frenchness or Germaness? Or what about Americaness?

 

[Kyriakos]

I think that the UK would only be a united entity as long as the economy was quite strong and there was the hope of the lower classes to become middle-class. I mean back when i was in England, i had few dealings with english students, but i recall that most of them expressively claimed that while they shared the romantic idea of the 'working class', they wanted to be very distanced from it in reality. Their dream was to stay, or be, part of the middle class (which obviously led them to be in the university at any rate, cause probably around half of the undergraduate students were at least in their 20s, and not a small number was above 25).

The economic downturn could only make some old wounds open up again. Probably it is not entirely disimilar to the situation in Spain with its own multi-entity union.

 

[Traitorfish]

Britishness is dead

Would you be able to elaborate? Both on what it is that has "died", and how that death came about?

 

[~Corsair#01~]

I regard Britishness as a common heritage shared between the Scots, English, Welsh and Irish.

Scotland is named after an Irish tribe who "made their mark" shall we say on Scotland and whose Gaelic language continues to be spoken there.

Wales shares a common Celtic identity with Ireland and a history with England that is too extensive to list.

Scotland has an enduring legacy in the north of Ireland that includes *me* among many others.

And then there's the English who have their fingers in as many pies as they can find.

My view on Britain is that its a super-nation formed out of four historically bound nations (and their modern immigrant populations) which form part of Europe. In the same way that America has 50 states, Britain has four nations.

Britishness is associated with Englishness to a large degree, but I don't think it can be discounted as merely English colonialism. There are people outside of England who believe in the idea of Britain as a family of nations. Maybe in the past it was a cynical imperialist idea. But the past is a long time ago.

I don't like UKIP, because... well frankly I don't even need to answer that.

I hope that our four nations will be united in the future as part of a federal Europe, and later as part of a world-state.

 

[Traitorfish]

Britishness is associated with Englishness to a large degree, but I don't think it can be discounted as merely English colonialism. There are people outside of England who believe in the idea of Britain as a family of nations. Maybe in the past it was a cynical imperialist idea. But the past is a long time ago.

It's interesting that you say that, because it seems to me that the Imperial conception of Britishness was rather more robust and more coherent than twenty-first century conceptions. Most Scots, Welsh and even many Irish felt a strong attachment to Britain and Britishness, and didn't see this as contradicting or impairing their local identities. The belief that Britishness exists in tension with Scottish or Welshness seems to be a mostly postwar phenomenon, with the shift in Britishness form an imperial to a simply national identity, and even in Ireland they only really come to be seen as irreconcilable after 1916. Somebody like David Lloyd George, an enthusiastic unionist and imperialist, yet at the same time a patriotic Welshman, is very difficult to imagine today.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

It's interesting that you say that, because it seems to me that the Imperial conception of Britishness was rather more robust and more coherent than twenty-first century conceptions. Most Scots, Welsh and even many Irish felt a strong attachment to Britain and Britishness, and didn't see this as contradicting or impairing their local identities. The belief that Britishness exists in tension with Scottish or Welshness seems to be a mostly postwar phenomenon, and even in Ireland, they only really come to be seen as irreconcilable after 1916, with the shift in Britishness form an imperial to a simply national identity.

In Ireland, what happened was violence. That's what destroyed the British identity there.

When people divide up into a wartime footing and start killing each other, middle ground evaporates very quickly. That's why the IPP went from being the only political party in Ireland worth mentioning to disappearing overnight. If people in Ireland are forced to choose between "us" and "them", the result is you get a lot of Irish people and not very many British.

I would have to say though, that Scotland and Wales do not seem to have any problem with British identity. The referendum in Scotland can be comfortably expected to fail (sorry, but its a foregone conclusion) and Wales seems happy to be part of Britain.

If national tensions in those countries were less pronounced in the past, I think its probably just due to the English domination of the UK at that time and suppression of alternative views. I don't think the British idea in Great Britain is more in danger now than in the past or that the public debate has shifted.

It's just that now there is a public debate whereas previously there wasn't.

 

[Perfection]

Useless additional vowels.

Also Jeremy Clarkson

 

[Traitorfish]

I would have to say though, that Scotland and Wales do not seem to have any problem with British identity. The referendum in Scotland can be comfortably expected to fail (sorry, but its a foregone conclusion) and Wales seems happy to be part of Britain.

You're conflating the United Kingdom, a state, with Britishness, a national identity. Electoral support for the Union does not in itself suggest enthusiasm for British identity- and, for that matter, a vote for independence does not in itself suggest a rejection of it. You can't infer so straightforwardly how people feel about one issue from how they vote on another.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

You're conflating the United Kingdom, a state, with Britishness, a national identity. Electoral support for the Union does not in itself suggest enthusiasm for British identity- and, for that matter, a vote for independence does not in itself suggest a rejection of it. You can't infer so straightforwardly how people feel about one issue from how they vote on another.

Most people have no opinion on "Britishness" or any other national/ethnic identity at all. What they want is a government that delivers the services they want and issues of language and culture are secondary.

This is especially true in a modern world where American and in some cases even Japanese culture is more likely to provide a common cultural reference point for people than national identities.

Its important when talking about nationality to understand that people's identity and their culture is more complex than 19th century romantic nationalists would have you believe.

I am in a very small minority in Northern Ireland, not just for my views on Ireland and Britain but even for having any views at all on the issues of British and Irish nationalism.

Nationalism is one issue among many today, and its not one that many people care much about.

 

[Traitorfish]

Most people have no opinion on "Britishness" or any other national/ethnic identity at all.

Well that is plainly untrue. They may not have an explicit position, may not have reflected on it, but you'd struggle to find anybody in the United Kingdom who, if asked their nationality, would not understand the question.

 

[Domen]

A sort of north-western version of Yugoslavianess or Czechoslovakness.

But with a much longer tradition.

===================================

Is there a similar map showing the modern level of Britishization?:

 

[ParkCungHee]

Awful.

 

[fret]

A sort of north-western version of Yugoslavianess or Czechoslovakness.

But with a much longer tradition.

===================================

Is there a similar map showing the modern level of Britishization?:

Is there a similar map showing the actual historical limits of Roman influence?

 

[~Corsair#01~]

Awful.

Awful, awful, awful.

This isn't my opnion on the topic of this thread, just a general statement.

Jesus Christ, things are pretty awful.

 

[warpus]

Britishness will always be different things to different people. If even 80% of all British people could agree on "Britishness", then I would go with their definition. But they can't, so I'm not even going to get started.

Having said that, it probably involves tea and crumpets.

 

[Cutlass]

I'm pretty sure both a stiff upper lip and a silly walk factor in there someplace....

 

[Antilogic]

I approve of Perfection, Warpus, and Cutlass's posts.

 

[Domen]

Ministry of Silly Walks will always be the most British Ministry to me.