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What is the US up to with regard to Iran?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by AmazonQueen, May 16, 2019.

  1. Ironsided

    Ironsided Flower of happiness

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    What are you even saying here? Is it an attempted strawman? Are you asking for leniency on America because it could possibly done even worse? As Lexicus said historically both Korea and Vietnam, and add the ME. All large scale. Now. Add the drone wars. Add the funding of rebel activities. Add the trade war with China, add the crippling sanctions on Venezuela, add the accusations at Russia, add the recent withdrawals from international agreements and you have a virtual storm of threats to global safety.
     
  2. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    He didn't tell me. Did he tell you? When?
     
  3. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    No, I'm saying I don't believe USA is a credible threat to other major powers because it has never demonstrated a history or will to engage major powers with the same shenanigans it's done in other wars of self-interest since WW2. I'm not downplaying the atrocities.

    The trade war with China and "accusations at Russia" do not belong in the same list as our actual wars or funding rebels. Venezuela is its own joke.
     
  4. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    "since ww2" is kind of a massive exception though
    Additionally you know we like non-stop threatened to destroy the other global superpower with nuclear weapons for like five decades straight, no big deal though I guess because those were commies and they had it coming
     
  5. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    only the best of intentions, clearly. good intentions. on both sides.

    unless you're brown or chinese or poor or standing in the way of freedom™

    arguable

    now that's just being dishonest. it didn't happen, luckily for us all, but there were so, so many people who desperately did want the US to "engage major powers". just saying, General MacArthur literally did everything in his power to make the atomic bombing of both North Korea and China a reality. luckily people like him did not have their way.
     
  6. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    The USA was not an aggressor in WW2, and its participation was not special...in contrast to every conflict it's engaged since then. A scenario where allies are getting overrun by a dictator who is willing to slaughter millions is a massive exception in more ways than one.

    Yes, and vice versa. And the fallout from that would starve a substantial portion of the world on top of that. Nuclear arms isn't special to the USA/Israel though, a relatively large number of countries could do this now.

    The thought of just the USA or just USSR having nukes during the cold war is not pleasant.

    That last one is the relevant one, as long as we all know what it "means". If you're living in Rwanda, you can feel pretty darned safe against aggression from US military presence/bombing for example. Lots of places like that. They never seem to get US attention. Being "in the way of freedom" seems to be something with consistent properties, though few things are as "free" as the definition of "freedom" in this context.
     
  7. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    No? Are you under the impression that the US bombed and destroyed Japan and Germany, invaded Europe, island-hopped across the Pacific, in self-defense? You don't seriously think we did all that just out of the goodness of our hearts, either, I hope?

    Well, the power and threat was not symmetrical or anything close to it. The idea that the Soviet Union had anything close to parity in terms of nuclear weapons was known to be false by US officials in the 1950s and 60s, but they pretended otherwise for domestic political purposes.
     
  8. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    interesting about US intervention or non-intervention before WW2 is that Americans were willingly propping up fascist regimes in Europe, as a specific example I can point to spain, where the Francoist side had a huge problem with supply lines, and the US helped them out in a critical moment with lots of trucks and other transportation measures. the flow of the money pre-ww2 is something highly interesting and sadly absent from many scientific works dealing with the pre-ww2 climate in Europe.
     
  9. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    We *got bombed* by Japan first, and invaded Germany in defense of an ally. In both of their cases these were belligerent nations that, if left alone, we could reasonably believe to be a direct threat. Not some threat to resources only or to the dollar, but having a credible chance to kill a lot of people we cared about.

    Obviously it was not done out of the "goodness of our hearts". Can you find any example of such motivation in historical wars between human beings? The closest you get is when the defending side is literally just fighting for survival, and even that's less "goodness of heart" and more just a genuine motivation.

    Of course. The economies weren't comparable either. Yet the "we do this and an enormous amount of people on both sides are going to die" was still a real factor regardless. Asymmetry isn't as meaningful when an enormous percentage of your side is still going to die.

    Probably has nothing on US conduct in South/Central America too. WW2 actions had a lot of reasonable necessity, but that shouldn't be mistaken for it being the actions of angels.
     
  10. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Trump is not a deal maker. He thinks bullying is negotiating. Can you name any successful deals Trump has ever negotiated for which we actually know the terms? BTW, going to court is not negotiating.

    How's the Nafta replacement going? Through congress yet?
    How's that better healthcare for all deal going?
    How about DACA?
    How about the negotiations on the wall last winter? How did that go?
    For two years Trump had republican control of both houses. He got a tax bill passed. Why no wall? Why nothing else? He couldn't even negotiate with Republicans.

    To give him credit, his negotiations with Stormy Daniels went well. She got paid $130,000 for not having sex with him. I guess that is brilliant in Trump world.

    Do you actually think that Bolton is there so Trump can play good cap bad cop? And Stephen Miller?

    If Trump cared about US businesses other than coal, he would act differently. He only cares about how his actions impact his image. And BTW, war is great for the military industrial complex. Somebody on Fox telling the president something is irrelevant. He does what he wants. Te economy doesn't need Trump's help, he just needs to get out of the way stop trying look important by ripping up perfectly good deals and trying to do his own.
     
  11. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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  12. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Of course, Napoleon's conquest of Europe was to bring the benefits of the French Revolution to the rest of the continent and if they hadn't resisted, all those years of fighting and death would have been avoided. :D


    Link to video.
     
  13. Samson

    Samson Warlord

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    I hope I am wrong, but I suspect that the idea is to start a war soon before the elections, and so get his second term on a "don't change the horses midstream" ticket.
     
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  14. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    He reigned in Bolton on Venezuela, I'm going to guess he's going to do that on Iran too unless something screwed up happens. I'm also going to guess he doesn't bend on sanctions and Iran accelerates its armament progress.
     
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  15. GoodSarmatian

    GoodSarmatian Blackpilled Idealist

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    Somebody is supposedly sabotaging ships. Looks like an incompetent false-flag considering that a carrier group is already on its way. It wouldn't surprise me if there's a was as part of the 2020 election campaign.
     
  16. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Few things are actually impossible.
     
  17. Berzerker

    Berzerker Warlord

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    Now I gotta defend everything he's done? Ofc going to court is negotiating, he's been making deals most of his life. I'm not privy to the details of those deals or the ones he's negotiating now. I dont think the wall was going to be built, it only became important as a political issue and bargaining chip. His business is not the military industrial complex. You dont think its relevant that he went on Fox to oppose Bush's war? I think it speaks volumes, sure sets him apart from Biden and Clinton.
     
  18. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    No you don't. Courts are not negotiating. It is an abdication of negotiating to the courts or just an attempt to force your opponent to concede points to avoid a court judgement. It's just bullying via attorney's fees. Negotiating is working towards an agreed upon conclusion. Court decisions are not negotiations. Bullying is not negotiating.

    Again, Trump claims he is a top deal maker, yet there doesn't seem to be any evidence that he has actually closed a great deal. His casino deals were all failures. his first two years dealing with his congress were all failures except taxes. ATM he is negotiating trade with Canada and Mexico, but he has yet to negotiate that deal with congress. Want to bet how it will turn out? He negotiations with China are failures so far. other than with Putin, can you name any successful negotiations he has concluded in two years?

    Oh there is one I forgot: In 2008 he sold a mansion in Florida that he bought for $41 million to a Russian Oligarch for $95 million. It was a fabulous money laundering deal. Oh, the new Russian owner was approved in 2016 to tear the house down and subdivide the property. His freshly washed $100 million is now clean as can be.
     
  19. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    Were there successful negotiations with Putin? I must have missed something.
     
  20. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    The Russian hooker tapes haven't been released yet, so I guess Trumpy did successfully negotiate a deal over those. ;)
     

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