What it means to be English

[Leoreth]

Well, I disagree about your underlying assumption that there's a meaningful difference in political freedom between Republics and Democratic Monarchies.

 

[Borachio]

Perhaps it is not that distinction that needs to be focused on. But rather that of slave and master.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Slave nation, give me a break.
I'm the son of immigrants from Yugoslavia to Germany. My ancestors have been 'enslaved' by Byzantines, Turks and Austrians. I live in the Rhineland which in the past 200 years alone had been 'enslaved' by the French, Prussians and Austrians.
Does it have any bearing on my life ? No.
Is it constantly on my mind ? No.
Do I bring it up in conversation ? No, because it's utterly irrelevant and backward nationalistic wankery.

 

[Ayn Rand]

Perhaps it is not that distinction that needs to be focused on. But rather that of slave and master.

But you won't tell us who the master is And I was so looking forward to finding out who it is.

Mebbe these guis?

Spoiler :

Or thees guys?

Spoiler :

Perhaps these guyz?

Spoiler :

Or even theez guys?

Spoiler :

 

[Borachio]

Nice pictures. No, I don't think it's any of those. Are you saying then that we have no masters?

 

[Ayn Rand]

Nice pictures. No, I don't think it's any of those. Are you saying then that we have no masters?

We have a complex society like every other society on the Planet. Sounds like you need to check out reality a bit more and see how society really operates. Maybe start with Weber, the sociologist.

 

[Borachio]

Yes, I read Weber 38 years ago. I realise we live in a complex society. The implication of what you are saying is that we are masters of our own lives? And in principle I can see nothing to disagree with you. I apologise if you think this is a non-topic. You may very well be right. In which case all is right with the world. Do you think it is? Or do you think that the problems that confront us, which seem to be largely of our own making, are too complex to ever be resolved? If you feel that I am just writing drivel for the sake of drivel, a point of view I can quite understand, please ignore this post altogether. I thank you for your attention in this matter, and apologise for wasting your time.


edit: Of course, that still leaves us with the issue of what it means to be English. We seem to be lacking a national identity somehow. (And indeed do any of us really need one?) The UK is a strange combination of English, Welsh, Scots, Manx, and Cornish all with histories of rivalries and resentments. Plus Northern Ireland whose history is too complex for me to deal with in any respect whatsoever. My point is that it seems OK to declare yourself to be Scots, Welsh, etc (to a certain extent) but the English seem to have a nationality that dare not speak its name. Or is this just more drivel? No, no, don't answer. I don't need to know.

@ GoodSarmatian Would you say that to anyone whose ancestor's had been enslaved? Are we talking category errors? I suggest you ignore this thread and let it disappear from view.

@ Ayn Rand the initial enslaver was naturally the Norman French.

 

[Ayn Rand]

Yes, I read Weber 38 years ago. I realise we live in a complex society. The implication of what you are saying is that we are masters of our own lives? And in principle I can see nothing to disagree with you. I apologise if you think this is a non-topic. You may very well be right. In which case all is right with the world. Do you think it is? Or do you think that the problems that confront us, which seem to be largely of our own making, are too complex to ever be resolved? If you feel that I am just writing drivel for the sake of drivel, a point of view I can quite understand, please ignore this post altogether. I thank you for your attention in this matter, and apologise for wasting your time.


edit: Of course, that still leaves us with the issue of what it means to be English. We seem to be lacking a national identity somehow. (And indeed do any of us really need one?) The UK is a strange combination of English, Welsh, Scots, Manx, and Cornish all with histories of rivalries and resentments. Plus Northern Ireland whose history is too complex for me to deal with in any respect whatsoever. My point is that it seems OK to declare yourself to be Scots, Welsh, etc (to a certain extent) but the English seem to have a nationality that dare not speak its name. Or is this just more drivel? No, no, don't answer. I don't need to know.

@ GoodSarmatian Would you say that to anyone whose ancestor's had been enslaved? Are we talking category errors? I suggest you ignore this thread and let it disappear from view.

You're mixing up two issues - one of the English identity, and the other of "English enslavement".

Our national identity doesn't need that much overt expression - we are simply better than everyone else, so why worry about it? We don't need flags or simple nationalism - that's for the foreigner, who is simple-minded and needs instruction.

But for "slavery" and "masters" you can come from a variety of angles - do you think we are a class-based society where the ruling class or capitalists are our masters? Do you think government is too strong and therefore our master? Or do you simply think that other nationalities and international interests have too much influence on us? There are so many theories on who is master and slave, and whether it is just or unjust, that you need to clarify just so people can understand where you're coming from.

 

[Quackers]

Slave nation, give me a break.
I'm the son of immigrants from Yugoslavia to Germany. My ancestors have been 'enslaved' by Byzantines, Turks and Austrians. I live in the Rhineland which in the past 200 years alone had been 'enslaved' by the French, Prussians and Austrians.
Does it have any bearing on my life ? No.
Is it constantly on my mind ? No.
Do I bring it up in conversation ? No, because it's utterly irrelevant and backward nationalistic wankery.

Thats actually an imba rebuttal to useless's post too

Not even the most nasty nationalist province party frames it in the way useless does. It's more about gaining benefits from independence; economic and obviously political. Also with all these regional parliaments we have now, inevitably they are gonna think to themselves "aww we can only control this, this and this?! I want moar!" so typical parties in support of the union will turn toward more devolution and ultimately independence.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Is that why the North East overwhelmingly voted against more devolution?

 

[Quackers]

You seem to view dynastic history through anachronistically nationalist glasses.


In many ways, from a German perspective, the English seem to be the neighbor that's most similar to them, mentality-wise. Apparently the English themselves are not very fond of this notion, though.

It's odd because on one hand the current left quite like the modern Germany, it's private firms still focus on manufacturing and haven't fallen to the eval financial marketz! Plus the nostalgia for the European social democratic way of doing things (which i'm uncertain is true anymore) makes a lot of leftists feel all warm and fuzzy about Deustchland. Then on the right some quite like Germany because of it's percieved national character, efficiency, seriousness, dourness, hardworking (I believe) - which tickles some Britons

Then the rest of the population, 98% don't give a ____.

Is that why the North East overwhelmingly voted against more devolution?

how does that change anything i said?!

 

[Borachio]

Our national identity doesn't need that much overt expression - we are simply better than everyone else, so why worry about it? We don't need flags or simple nationalism - that's for the foreigner, who is simple-minded and needs instruction.

Are you serious about this? Isn't this the sort of attitude that gives a group of people a bad name globally? I cannot believe this is not an ironic statement.

 

[holy king]

also pheasants.

england has a lot of pheasants. dont you ever forget that.

Spoiler :

 

[Borachio]

I can't believe how ignorant I am (yes I can). What's an imba rebuttal? Can't seem to find it anywhere.


Nice pheasant. Bang!


edit: And incidentally what ever became of the Picts*? I did hear that the Anglo-Saxons were invited in to England by the Welsh, initially, in order to handle the Pictish raids. AS did so. Looked around. Settled down and wouldn't leave. Big mistake by the Welsh, eh?

*I think the remnants may have been eaten by the Scots


Plantagenet alert, Radio 4 now!


edit: whatever you do don't mention our chums across the water due South. Casual racism on Radio 4 OK. Here, not.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

@ GoodSarmatian Would you say that to anyone whose ancestor's had been enslaved?

Is this a buildup to some semantic trap that's ultimately about US race politics ?
Am I supposed to believe the English in Great Britain face similar -uninstitutional or otherwise- discrimination as African Americans ? Are Englishman so much more likely to end up in jail or low paying jobs as other ethnicities on the island ? Are they undererpresented in British universities ?

To answer your question: I wouldn't say that to people whose ancestors actually had been enslaved.

Are we talking category errors?

We're talking hyperbole and the abuse of terms like 'enslaved'.

I suggest you ignore this thread and let it disappear from view.

We'll see.
This thread doesn't offer much in the realm of serious discussion, but it has the potential to be quite entertaining.

 

[Dachs]

Now THAT'S what it means to be English

Being a supercilious, condescending dick?

We agree once again.

I live in the Rhineland which in the past 200 years alone had been 'enslaved' by the French, Prussians and Austrians.

...Austrians?

 

[Leoreth]

It's odd because on one hand the current left quite like the modern Germany, it's private firms still focus on manufacturing and haven't fallen to the eval financial marketz! Plus the nostalgia for the European social democratic way of doing things (which i'm uncertain is true anymore) makes a lot of leftists feel all warm and fuzzy about Deustchland. Then on the right some quite like Germany because of it's percieved national character, efficiency, seriousness, dourness, hardworking (I believe) - which tickles some Britons

Oh, I wasn't referring to economic or political aspects, more to a more general mentality, which is of course horribly vague and subjective and thus not really appropriate for a forum discussion.

 

[Dachs]

Oh, I wasn't referring to economic or political aspects, more to a more general mentality, which is of course horribly vague and subjective and thus not really appropriate for a forum discussion.

It's appropriate to this cesspool of a forum.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

...Austrians?

Hitler !

 

[Dachs]

Hitler !

Oh. Har.

You don't need to insert the spaces, by the way. It's only a five-char limit now.