What new wonder do you want to see in CivVII?

[UWHabs]

I was thinking about this, most players want to retain the Wonder Race, however, we want a huge number of Wonder available in a game, requirements are necessary to differentiate them, so we don't end up with players and AIs always chasing for the same goal.

So, a compromise I can think of is to make wonder race a formalised Wonder Race, with its own UI, notification, etc. Basically I was thinking we can have more requirements for building Wonder, but once its construction starts this creates a world announcement (unless someone uses an espionage system to hide it); then anyone who gets the announcement can spend a big number of one-time currency (cash, culture, production, faith when appropriate, to make sure the starting player has the advantage) plus a single turn to analysis the wonder, then they can formally partake in a Wonder Race, enable the player to bypass most of the wonder requirement (except for terrain requirement); partaking the wonder race would notify the first play and incur a diplomatic penalty, and once commited in a wonder race, all partaker except for the original builder cannot build other wonder at the same time.

Yeah, like you could in theory still have a "race", but instead of a race on the map for construction with raw production, the "race" would be in a different form. I mean, you could even simplify it to the point that each Wonder is assigned a single Great Engineer, and whoever gets the engineer wins the wonder race and the right to place the wonder.

It would have to be its own whole system maybe like how you race for Heroes. You'd probably have to set up like a global pool of engineer points which can be applied to any of them, otherwise each Engineer would maybe have some special way to collect points towards them. ie. Chares of Lindos was the sculptor for the Colossus of Rhodes. For him, basically the first person to accumulate 100 points would earn him, and he can construct the Colossus. You earn 1 point per turn for each lighthouse or harbor in your empire. If you want to rush that, maybe you can run a special project which will give you points towards them. Or you can spend accumulated Great Engineer points to rush them.

If you had a system like that, you would still have a race aspect for it, but you don't have the "sniped at the last minute before you could place the last stone" part of the race when you lose.

 

[pokiehl]

I think that would be way too arbitrary and gamey for me. I think the race for wonders is good as it is.

 

[Krajzen]

I want to see more industrial or modern era wonders, especially unorthodox ones, stuff like Sydney Opera, not mere skyscrapers. It's not very hard to figure out some new token great "classical" temple/castle/palace of country X. Besides that, we need more interesting content for the endgame.

For example, this is Lotus Temple of modern India

Spoiler :

or Singapore's Gardens by the Bay

Spoiler :

I would generally like more wonders which are utilitarian in nature, factories and manufactures, as they can be very cool - check Zollverein Complex of Germany (inexplicably represented as "Ruhr Valley" which is an entire region size of a small country). For example Wieliczka Salt Mine, very unique type of wonder, also bonus points for being Polish representation here. You can only build in on salt tile and it produces a TON of salt while also providing various economic bonuses.

Spoiler :

Another unusual idea of wonder is Manufaktura of Łódź - it is former dilapidated factory area renovated and opened in 2006 as cultural and commercial zone, very highly rated urban project over there

Spoiler :

You could make it like "can only be built in a city with an old factory, industrial yields now also contribute to culture" or something like that.

Hell I'd even support Mumbai's airport as an unorthodox wonder - not only it has an amazing design but it actually won awards for "world's best airport" so you could make it some sort of super logistical center in game

Spoiler :

 

[Brackenspore]

Great Sphynx, Atomium, Lotus Temple, Versailles, CERN, Three Gorges Dam, Krak des Chevaliers, Temple of Heaven, Prambanan

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

natural wonder: Niagara Falls (bonus power gen, money and tourism) (2 tile wonder btw)

 

[jsciv69]

Here's a few Wonders to consider:

Caesar's Palace: Double the effects of regular Casinos, Doubles number of tourists, Improves economic output,
Ellis Island: Doubles the effects of all Immigration Process Centers, Immigrants are processed into citizens faster
NASA: Space Ship parts are built faster, greatly increases launch success
Camp Pendelton: Doubles the effectiveness of every new Marine unit

 

[tipsoops]

Mount Athos.

Spoiler :

Paro Taktsang.

Spoiler :

Pena Palace (I would much rather see this than have Neuschwanstein come back).

Spoiler :

Antwerpen-Centraal. Some people have brought up airports as wonders and I don't think that's a bad idea, but what about the original industrial infrastructure hub? I am sure that there were larger stations that received more traffic, but I also think a wonder should be something that is not only functional but also beautiful. No station beats Antwerpen-Centraal in that regard (it is also the only one on this list that I've actually seen!).

Spoiler :

The Goetheanum (preferably the first one, but the second would be great too).

Spoiler :

Cathedral of Brasilia. A late game religious wonder could help speed along a religious victory (or defend against it?).

Spoiler :

Tokyo Skytree (would me much cooler than the Burj Khalifa thematically, since it actually serves a purpose beyond being really tall.)

Spoiler :

Overall I'm against super recent wonders in general both because they haven't really had time to become iconic, and because they would come to close to in-game advertisements. The sphere is a good example of this, so is Disneyworld. Skytree is different, I think, both because it is a little bit older and it serves a public function. I also think its been around long enough to make a name for itself as a symbol of Tokyo. Overall, I would like to see modern wonders (anything post-1960 or 1970) focus mostly on science and infrastructure. I also would not mind seeing the Statue of Belief in India, if only because building a giant statue of Shiva right before starting a nuclear war would be pretty funny.

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

Here's a few Wonders to consider:

Caesar's Palace: Double the effects of regular Casinos, Doubles number of tourists, Improves economic output,
Ellis Island: Doubles the effects of all Immigration Process Centers, Immigrants are processed into citizens faster
NASA: Space Ship parts are built faster, greatly increases launch success
Camp Pendelton: Doubles the effectiveness of every new Marine unit

Actually Nasa used to be that way. Now, it would be built slower, and random chance of the launch going off on time.

SpaceX though... building ships like no tomorrow. (and landing'em again)


I do like the Vegas idea though. (the OLD NV, before the morons started trying to make it 'family friendly'. stoopids.
Leave that to Disney et al, Vegas and the like are for the ADULTS. (partly to get AWAY from 'family')

 

[Roman Citizen]

Oh and one final one The International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor.

 

[Leyrann]

Oh and one final one The International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor.

It's production cost increases whenever you get close to finishing it?

 

[AffineConstant]

It's production cost increases whenever you get close to finishing it?

Don't worry, you just need one more "Future tech" and I'm sure you'll get it done!

 

[Potworny]

Another unusual idea of wonder is Manufaktura of Łódź - it is former dilapidated factory area renovated and opened in 2006 as cultural and commercial zone, very highly rated urban project over there

Manufaktura is now my favourite concept for a Polish wonder, I was never satisfied with the idea of adding Wieliczka, something just didn't impress me that much about it, I dunno. But Manufaktura? I love that place wholeheartedly. I used to play in the fountains there when I was a silly dumb kid. And it represents the post-industrial urban landscape of Łódź (as seen in the brilliant, Oscar nominated "The Promised Land"). And it has a cool name. And it's so pretty and great to hang around at. And it feels like a district. Fantastic idea.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

How do we feel about Humankind’s iteration of the wonder race, where you have to accumulate a resource to claim the wonder, and then it’s just yours to build? I think it solved some of the frustrating parts of Civ’s system (like getting one-turned) while still leaving the competitive race.

Though, I understand why someone might still prefer the Civ system- for as often as you might get your wonders stolen, you can also steal them from others. That’s impossible with a claim-first system.

Oh, the Humankind approach is way superior, definitely! The wonder race mechanic has always ticked me off, for the simple reason that it's by far the most ahistorical aspect of the game, even moreso than any of the scifi/fantasy elements that have showed up in the main game.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that wonders should maybe not provide any direct gameplay advantages whatsoever, save for any that are literally just power plants, and instead secure the building contracts through specific achievements, serving basically the same purpose their real life counterparts do: they provide some really pretty pictures and/or serve as a landmark to the home country's nationalist narrative! An example would be like, if the Hubble Space Telescope were to return as a wonder, the player wouldn't do it to receive a couple of great scientists or whatever, but instead to explicitly see images of the cosmos that the human race had never seen before, while also maybe patting themselves on the back over it, going "My country did that!" Maybe that's a bit too literalist take on wonders, and as others have alluded to, might remove some of that stake that made civ appealing in the first place. Still, it would be nice to see the game bring back features that only serve a cosmetic purpose

 

[Krajzen]

Oh, the Humankind approach is way superior, definitely! The wonder race mechanic has always ticked me off, for the simple reason that it's by far the most ahistorical aspect of the game, even moreso than any of the scifi/fantasy elements that have showed up in the main game.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that wonders should maybe not provide any direct gameplay advantages whatsoever, save for any that are literally just power plants, and instead secure the building contracts through specific achievements, serving basically the same purpose their real life counterparts do: they provide some really pretty pictures and/or serve as a landmark to the home country's nationalist narrative! An example would be like, if the Hubble Space Telescope were to return as a wonder, the player wouldn't do it to receive a couple of great scientists or whatever, but instead to explicitly see images of the cosmos that the human race had never seen before, while also maybe patting themselves on the back over it, going "My country did that!" Maybe that's a bit too literalist take on wonders, and as others have alluded to, might remove some of that stake that made civ appealing in the first place. Still, it would be nice to see the game bring back features that only serve a cosmetic purpose

Counterargument is rather simple: wonders that provide bonuses are much more fun. Humankind was a game where *natural* wonders provided no straight bonuses and ngl it felt very lame after civ - and architectural are way more important.

Besides, I think you underestimate irl utilitarian importance of many wonders in the game. Venetian Arsenal was a wonder of naval manufacturing technology of its time, enabling fast construction of ships; Ruhr Valley was massive industrial center; Universities of Sankore, Oxford and Amundsen Station and Great Library were research facilities, Kilwa Kisiwani and Great Zimbabwe were trade cities, Lighthouse was a lighthouse. Alhambra, Orszaghaz and Chichen Itza were administrative and cultural centers. Mahabodhi and Kotoku-in were hearts of intellectual activity, and Hermitage was cornucopia of art and culture. Pretty much every temple and tomb in history also fulfilled a ton of other utilitarian roles - even "mere" boost to dynastic prestige is a massive power on its own. The sight of Haghia Sophia was reported to utterly shock visitors of simple tribal peoples with the might of Rome and Christianity.

Even for more symbolic places I'm surprised how you trivialize them. National symbols are not mere aestethics, they carry enormous soft power. Statue of Liberty, Big Ben, Eiffel Tower, Sydney Opera, St Basil, Cristo Redentor and Maracana - these are symbolic embodiments of their civilizations, evoking powerful emotions and attraction. But since is impossible to simulate soft power, it makes sense for them to provide some material bonus in game.

 

[Leyrann]

Even for more symbolic places I'm surprised how you trivialize them. National symbols are not mere aestethics, they carry enormous soft power. Statue of Liberty, Big Ben, Eiffel Tower, Sydney Opera, St Basil, Cristo Redentor and Maracana - these are symbolic embodiments of their civilizations, evoking powerful emotions and attraction.

You need to look no further than the 9/11 terror attacks (and the response) for that.

And if that's not enough, ask yourself: how would people have reacted if they'd flown one of those planes into the Statue of Liberty instead?

 

[reddishrecue]

You need to look no further than the 9/11 terror attacks (and the response) for that.

And if that's not enough, ask yourself: how would people have reacted if they'd flown one of those planes into the Statue of Liberty instead?

That reveals that the plotters aimed for lives rather than structures.

 

[Leyrann]

That reveals that the plotters aimed for lives rather than structures.

Or rather, for both.

More than a hundred people died in the Pentagon that same day, but it's almost forgotten because the Twin Towers were so iconic.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please stick to the topic of the thread.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

To rotate the discussion back to In-Game Wonders, I suggest that Wonders could be of two basic types:

1. The Apex structure of its type.
A Wonderous Temple, Market, Harbor, or even Barracks, Military Academy, Lighthouse. The Wonder would replace the existing structure of its type and provide extra advantages of the same type as provided by the original ordinary District or Structure. By making Wonders an Apex District or Structure this automatically takes care of the vast size difference among Wonders: Ruhr Valley as an Apex Industrial District or Angkor Wat as a Wonderous Religious District compared to, say, the Ford River Rouge Plant as a Wonderous Factory or Mahabodhi Temple as a Wonderous Temple automatically makes some wonders exclusionary, because you can't have two Apex Wonders of the same type. That is, you could have Angkor Wat (Wonderous District) and Notre Dame de Paris (Wonderous Temple) but not two Wonderous Religious Districts in the same Civ.

2. The Civilization Symbol.
This is a trickier concept, because it overlaps potentially with the first and the individual Wonders are a little different from what we are used to in Civ. This type of Wonder is one that symbolically defines your Civ: IRL like the Eiffel Tower for France, Statue of Liberty for the USA, the Parthenon for Greece. In the tradition of Civ, of course, none of those might be built by their original builder in the game, but when you build one of these, that becomes your Iconic Civ Symbol for the rest of the game - Mali with the Parthenon cannot decide later to jump in and build the Eiffel Tower, even though the benefits of the Tour Eiffel might be more useful then. Even if, say, the city in which the original symbolic Wonder was built was captured and razed, destroying the original Wonder, it would still leave Iconic Ruins behind so you are never entirely be 'free' of the original symbol - see the Parthenon, now a shell of its former glory, as an example of a Symbol that lives on, or China's Great (Long) Wall, of which only a tiny fraction survives intact.

The first type is the 'traditional' type of Wonder in the game, with perhaps a bit more exclusiveness provided by 'typing' the Wonders as to their benefits and what ordinary construction they replace. The second is a bit new, but could be another example of Personalizing your Civ by providing an In-Game graphic Symbol both in, say, Diplomatic Screens and/or Leader background, and on-map graphic. - All in addition to some specific set of Bonuses from the Wonder, no two sets of which are exactly the same so that the Symbolic Wonder also 'bends' your Civ in a certain direction: Commerce, Military, Religion, Culture, etc.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Are we counting Natural Wonders? Grand Canyon is way overdue.