Which Civ5 civilisation had the biggest impact on history?

[LyricalAssassin]

How are anyone else even in this race beside England and the Mongols?

Half of China's glory period was the Yuan dynasty, which was very much a part of the Mongol empire (in fact, Han Chinese people in the last thousand years didn't rule China until the 1900s, except for a dark period of isolation between yuan and ming). They also killed half the world's population and sacked all major cultural centers of the era. It was by far the largest man-caused forced migration in human history. It is directly linked to major accomplishments in Chinese, Indian, and Persian history, while single handedly causing the destruction of Russia and Arabia (at Arabia's peak world influence no less). A ridiculous number of people today (including a remarkable percentage of white people) are direct descendants of the Mongols (genealogy tests). If that weren't enough by itself, the Mongols spread the black plague to Europe and introduced Europeans to weaponized gunpowder. Rome has nothing on the accomplishments of the Mongol empire, besides the western bias.

The English created America (the current dominant world power), and ruled over half the world period. It is single handedly responsible in drawing something like 33% of all contested borders in the world today. Its language is the de facto world language. Its culture is known in depth in more parts of thee world than any other culture (except maybe America, but again, that's an offshoot of the British empire, and its in many ways an extension of English culture).

America and China should be nowhere near that list (although they are both poised to surpass Mongols/England by the time their current golden ages end). Rome and Greece and laughable and only mentioned because of the western bias of these forums and the composition of the civfanatics community (90% from the western world, mostly europe).

For those who are not familiar with the modern world cultural, technological, and physical impacts of the British and Mongol empires... Read Wikipedia. Its ridiculous.

The problem I have with the argument that the Mongols had an amazing civilization is that it wasn't a civilization by most standards. Don't get me wrong, it has a distinct culture and history, and was a world player in an integral time of human history, but I see it more as an "anti-civilization" if such can exist. The Mongols belong in the same category as the Huns or the Zulu. They didn't really contribute much to art or science, and the only contribution to the world economy was that their empire stabilized trade along the Silk Road. Eventually most of the Mongols were assimilated by the people they conquered while the rest of them reverted back to warring steppe tribes.

 

[adwcta]

The problem I have with the argument that the Mongols had an amazing civilization is that it wasn't a civilization by most standards. Don't get me wrong, it has a distinct culture and history, and was a world player in an integral time of human history, but I see it more as an "anti-civilization" if such can exist. The Mongols belong in the same category as the Huns or the Zulu. They didn't really contribute much to art or science, and the only contribution to the world economy was that their empire stabilized trade along the Silk Road. Eventually most of the Mongols were assimilated by the people they conquered while the rest of them reverted back to warring steppe tribes.

That is frankly quite offensive... Please read the Wikipedia entry for the Mongol Empire (focus on the non-conquest parts). It was far closer to the Roman Empire than the Huns and Zulu in terms of organization of an empire versus a tribe. Hell, where do you think America got the idea of the pony express from? After Genghis died, the Mongol empire was a thriving trade conglomerate that linked the east and the west for the first time ever. Land trade was never as fluid as it was then (including present day). Mongolian art had a huge influence in how art in Russia, Persia, India, and China developed. But, more importantly, it spread the existing art styles around the world (the British, Dutch, and French similarly did a ton of this, Spanish less so), which is what SHAPES the world. Same with science. Without the Mongols, Europe gets weaponized gunpowder 200 years later, Arabia remains the dominant world power (and likely gets weaponized gunpowder first, if at all, since Han were notoriously insular and hostile to the west), because the pre-Mongol silk road goes through the Arab world (whereas the golden horde used it in Poland first). Everything changes. The world impact is arguably larger than if Europe (all of the colonial powers combined) never colonized the rest of the world.

If this is about origination, then the Mongols added very little, and destroyed a ton. But, this is about IMPACT. The Mongols impacted the world in 200 years more than any civilization before or since, with possible exception of England.

It wasn't just a bunch of really skilled archers on horses running amok for 200 years before returning to the steppes.

Source: Wikipedia, and having lived in or at least visited extensively all of the countries being discussed as candidates in the top 10 (including Mongolia, which is actually where I was earlier this week), except for Greece.

edit: my personal top 10, removing the euro-centralism, while still giving the colonial powers their due impact.
England.
Mongolia.
Arabia.
Rome.
America.
France.
Spain.
Ottoman.
Russia.
China.

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[Krajzen]

Nice list adwcta But personally I would put India instead of Ottomans. India had much bigger impact on world religion/science/economy

 

[PhilBowles]

Yeah, India is extremely underrated and Greece ridiculously overrated. IMHO the 'only' truly giant accomplishment of Greece is Intellectual Life but saying that they invented mathematics/philosophy is still overrated:

Spoiler :

Greeks invented theatre? Don't be silly, theatre existed earlier in South/East Asia (and something similar to theatre has appeared in really many cultures - why exactly western concept of theatre is better? culture can't be measured as economy )

Greeks invented democracy? This democracy which lasted for less than 100 years until epic fail and being completely abandoned forever? And this democracy which appeared 100 years after Indian democratic states?

Greeks invented epic literature? Mahabharata is not only older but TEN TIMES longer than Illad and Odyssey COMBINED. And in my opinion it is much, much deeper than Illad/Odyssey (especially Odyssey which was basically ancient adventure story ).

Greeks had sophisticated culture? Yes, they had, so what? Many parts of the world had as sophisticated culture as ancient Greece

Greeks invented mathematics? No, mathematics was started by ancient Near East societies and India.

Greeks invented 'civilised world'? Greeks, who had insane numbers of slaves and were highly xenophobic/racist since Persian wars?

Spoiler :

I agree Greece is heavily overrated in the poll, and many of its achievements are "double-counted" - Greece originated them, but without Rome many would have been lost. Most wouldn't count the Israelites as a major influence on the world because they gave rise to Christianity - without Rome it would have remained a minor cult. Much the same is the case for Greece; certainly impressive and they get a lot of credit for the ideas, but it wasn't Greece that changed the world with them. Alexander did a lot to influence the world, for sure (not least by destroying Persia), but that was a military accomplishment and he actively encouraged the adoption of non-Hellenic cultures by his generals rather than the spread of Greek thought; not much of Greece persisted in India or Persia.

Greece fully deserves to be high on the list, but not as high as it is.

Personally I am really astonished by low positions of:

- India, while Greek civilisation had immense impact on Western intellectual life India had immense impact on Eastern intellectual life - we are talking here about thousands of years and billions of people.

To some extent I can excuse the French being overlooked - there are all the people wary enough of eurocentrism, and as most of those feel forced to acknowledge England and/or Rome as world-changing powers, they're probably reticent about adding another European power to the list. But I agree that it's bizarre so much of the regionalist or 'eurosceptic' discussion has been focused on China - India's cultural influence in the region (and certainly beyond, as it is India that served as the hub and point of contact with Europe and the Arab world) is far greater.

...Arabia, France, Germany and Russia.

These are very fair picks. A lot of people equate Germany with the 19th Century modern state alone, however - and look how much fuss it's caused just acknowledging another 19th Century state as a power with a major impact on the world. Of the two, America has clearly had the greater impact than modern Germany. Russia's place I'd question somewhat more.

- Spain (they created the entire new Latin American culture and changed Americas forever O_o)

As I noted earlier on the thread, particularly from a Western Hemisphere viewpoint it's easy to overrate Spain's importance. Latin American culture owes a great deal to a diversity of indigenous groups (which is why it's Latin American rather than Spanish), and much of the surviving Spanish influence in many of these areas is in little more than carnivals and Christianity.

Spain is very far from unimportant, but it really has to rank below the later European empires in terms of influence and - as a spur to the Age of Discovery - it changed the world less than Portugal. An underrated invention, the caravel - just read a recent treatment of Portugal's colonial adventures, "The Last Crusade: the Epic Voyages of Vasco de Gama", and its description of four Portuguese ships defeating whole fleets of Venetian, Islamic and Indian vessels, to see just how much the arrival of cannon-armed, ocean-going ships changed the world and paved the way for European dominance in the following centuries. More negatively, I've read articles implicating Portuguese interference in Africa as a deliberate policy to destabilize the native kingdoms, especially Kongo, changing much of the face of a continent.

- France: this country is the most popular tourist attraction after China and had extremely big cultural impact not only in the West but in the whole world o_O

From a poll last year, it seems France is the most popular tourist destination in the world, at least for international tourism, moreso than China (which of course will have far greater domestic tourism). Though flagging that as the country's major achievement is something of an insult. As a regional power, France has arguably had more impact on European history than India or China has on Asian history, and most of modern mainland Europe owes more legally and politically to Napoleon than to Rome. French products are so ubiquitous they're often not even thought of as French - I've already mentioned the export of croissants and baguettes worldwide. France was at the forefront of scientific exploration in the colonial era, while the modern world owes it everything from automobiles to penicillin and cinema.

 

[dashwinner]

40 people said America?? really??

 

[shaglio]

From a poll last year, it seems France is the most popular tourist destination in the world, at least for international tourism, moreso than China (which of course will have far greater domestic tourism). Though flagging that as the country's major achievement is something of an insult. As a regional power, France has arguably had more impact on European history than India or China has on Asian history, and most of modern mainland Europe owes more legally and politically to Napoleon than to Rome. French products are so ubiquitous they're often not even thought of as French - I've already mentioned the export of croissants and baguettes worldwide. France was at the forefront of scientific exploration in the colonial era, while the modern world owes it everything from automobiles to penicillin and cinema.

Don't forget the American Revolution. If England wasn't too preoccupied fighting France to send over more troops, or if the French hadn't sent over reinforcements, we would most likely have lost the Revolution and remained an English colony. Of course, nobody can know what would have happened afterward (unless we develop a wormhole to parallel universes), but if America remained an English colony to this day, all these reasons that people cited in voting for America would be credited to England.

PS - I am shocked that this thread is still up and running. It has lasted longer than I ever imagined it could.

 

[Resipsa]

Don't forget the American Revolution. If England wasn't too preoccupied fighting France to send over more troops, or if the French hadn't sent over reinforcements, we would most likely have lost the Revolution and remained an English colony. Of course, nobody can know what would have happened afterward (unless we develop a wormhole to parallel universes), but if America remained an English colony to this day, all these reasons that people cited in voting for America would be credited to England.

PS - I am shocked that this thread is still up and running. It has lasted longer than I ever imagined it could.

Or maybe America wouldn't have developed a melting pot culture of "self-actualization" if it remained a British colony. I didn't vote for America but I can see the rationale behind it.

 

[andreafin]

The Habsburgs were not "part of the HRE" - part of their territory was within the HRE, but they were a separate entity. I'll grant that you're right to say the game's Austria represents the Habsburgs rather than modern Austria (I'd thought the uniques were from the later imperial period, but double-checking they're both somewhat earlier), however in that case it's not at all correct to count the HRE as encompassing Austria - that's only true of modern Austria.

just query here, i read that one of napoleonic defeats of austria-hungary caused the emperor to have to give up the title holy roman emperor. i am sure i read it in a book on the napoleonic wars somewhere?

 

[Krajzen]

Greece fully deserves to be high on the list, but not as high as it is.

I agree

As I noted earlier on the thread, particularly from a Western Hemisphere viewpoint it's easy to overrate Spain's importance. Latin American culture owes a great deal to a diversity of indigenous groups (which is why it's Latin American rather than Spanish), and much of the surviving Spanish influence in many of these areas is in little more than carnivals and Christianity.

Wow, I didn't know that Spanish influence is so weak (although I learnt a lot about Latin American diversity and culture from Leugi's South American civilisations Also I know that there is a big impact of indigenous people)

Spain is very far from unimportant, but it really has to rank below the later European empires in terms of influence and - as a spur to the Age of Discovery - it changed the world less than Portugal.

Hah, to be honest personally I really don't like Spain. No, not don't like - I hate Spanish empire (while I have nothing against Spanish people, I am talking about political entities - I also hate Russian state and love Russian literature ). For me it was fanatic and barbaric - it destroyed great muslim Iberian civilisation, many American cultures (well that is overrated, 93% of Indians were dead because of disease but still - Spaniards had much blood on their hands), persecuted and devastated Netherlands and opressed south Netherlands, widely used Inquisition and was known from fanatism, great part of its success Spain owed to other nations (Italian merchants, Portugal sailors and so on), and last but not least: Spanish power lasted for ~one century and then this country fell in total economical void and currently is definitely the weakest Big Western Post - Imperial Country (weaker than UK, France, Germany, Netherlands, even Italy). So... yeah, it shouldn't be in the first 10

From a poll last year, it seems France is the most popular tourist destination in the world, at least for international tourism, moreso than China (which of course will have far greater domestic tourism).

Lol I was afraid someone will point that - I mean, French tourism > Chinese MAIN COUNTRY tourism, but if we add Hongkong, Macau, Singapore and Taiwan tourism to China, then Chinese tourism > French tourism (in this particular case I treat these states (?) as representants of 'Chinese Culture' )

Though flagging that as the country's major achievement is something of an insult. As a regional power, France has arguably had more impact on European history than India or China has on Asian history, and most of modern mainland Europe owes more legally and politically to Napoleon than to Rome. French products are so ubiquitous they're often not even thought of as French - I've already mentioned the export of croissants and baguettes worldwide. France was at the forefront of scientific exploration in the colonial era, while the modern world owes it everything from automobiles to penicillin and cinema.

Yeah. So I am shocked that French is so underrated in this poll, especially when it is Western country

Poor France and India

 

[LyricalAssassin]

That is frankly quite offensive... Please read the Wikipedia entry for the Mongol Empire (focus on the non-conquest parts). It was far closer to the Roman Empire than the Huns and Zulu in terms of organization of an empire versus a tribe. Hell, where do you think America got the idea of the pony express from? After Genghis died, the Mongol empire was a thriving trade conglomerate that linked the east and the west for the first time ever. Land trade was never as fluid as it was then (including present day). Mongolian art had a huge influence in how art in Russia, Persia, India, and China developed. But, more importantly, it spread the existing art styles around the world (the British, Dutch, and French similarly did a ton of this, Spanish less so), which is what SHAPES the world. Same with science. Without the Mongols, Europe gets weaponized gunpowder 200 years later, Arabia remains the dominant world power (and likely gets weaponized gunpowder first, if at all, since Han were notoriously insular and hostile to the west), because the pre-Mongol silk road goes through the Arab world (whereas the golden horde used it in Poland first). Everything changes. The world impact is arguably larger than if Europe (all of the colonial powers combined) never colonized the rest of the world.

If this is about origination, then the Mongols added very little, and destroyed a ton. But, this is about IMPACT. The Mongols impacted the world in 200 years more than any civilization before or since, with possible exception of England.

It wasn't just a bunch of really skilled archers on horses running amok for 200 years before returning to the steppes.

Source: Wikipedia, and having lived in or at least visited extensively all of the countries being discussed as candidates in the top 10 (including Mongolia, which is actually where I was earlier this week), except for Greece.

I feel that I must apologize for my previous statements. I just read the Wiki page for the Mongol Empire, and I must say that they were a very progressive people in some areas, such as religious tolerance. The Mongols are one of the civilizations of the world I have been meaning to study. I think I'll prioritize this as my next project after I finish up with the Arabian caliphates.

 

[Securion]

40 people said America?? really??

You know any other culture which is truly global? Go to the deepest of Africa and you can bet your life you will be able to buy a Coca Cola or see some Mickey Mouse T-shirt.
Hell, even in North Korea, under threat of the death penalty, does people watch american movies, listen to american music, etc...

It also helps that they have planted their flag on the moon, built the atom bomb, invented rock n roll, blue jeans and whatever you can imagine....

If you have a deep historical understanding of culture, and dont wear the normal "Anti-american"-protective glasses, you will quickly realise that America should probably be in the top three on the list. Its not PC of course, but its simple math.

 

[mrwho]

You know any other culture which is truly global? Go to the deepest of Africa and you can bet your life you will be able to buy a Coca Cola or see some Mickey Mouse T-shirt.
Hell, even in North Korea, under threat of the death penalty, does people watch american movies, listen to american music, etc...

It also helps that they have planted their flag on the moon, built the atom bomb, invented rock n roll, blue jeans and whatever you can imagine....

If you have a deep historical understanding of culture, and dont wear the normal "Anti-american"-protective glasses, you will quickly realise that America should probably be in the top three on the list. Its not PC of course, but its simple math.

They shouldn't be in the top 3 simply because they haven't existed for long enough. They're dominant in one century and not much else. Out of all recorded history, that's not even close to making them worthy of the top 3. If this thread title was 'which Civ 5 civilization had the biggest impact in the 20th century', America would be no.1. But it isn't.

 

[adwcta]

Nice list adwcta But personally I would put India instead of Ottomans. India had much bigger impact on world religion/science/economy

Yeah, India would have been next (and Portugal and Netherlands and Japan). But, the Ottoman Empire connected three continents in a way not seen since Rome. And, for most of that period, they were more advanced than European nations (I give extra credit for anything influencing Europe generally pre-colonialism, because colonialism defined four continents and heavily impacted a fifth; which covers everything short of Antarctica). I am probably heavily undervaluing the impact of religions outside the judeo-christian-islam line. But, Hinduisam never really spread, and while Buddhism did, it is a lot less fervorous than judeo-christian-islam, and so IMO has a smaller impact on the world.

In general, I think the peaceful spread of influence is really a very modern tool only made possible by modern tools of communication (and only used well by Russia and America initially; Germany, Japan, China also more recently). Before the 1900s, the best way to influence the world was to just take it over and hold it for a couple of generations at least.

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[Mustakrakish]

Where is Polandball?

 

[Arcaian]

So the original question was:

Which civilization had the biggest impact on history?

To answer the question effectively, we need to define impact on history. There are many ways you can do this - religions spread, peoples conquered, land held, time powerful, and probably many others. Personally I think the most effective way to answer this question is to ask the question:

Which civilization not existing would cause the biggest change in how we currently live, as a global population?

This puts much more emphasis on older civilizations, as compounding affects means it's more likely that an older civ will cause more changes. It also answers why I think - and many others - that India has had a greater impact than China. China was extremely insular, so its not existing would have less affect than India, who may have had less actual discoveries, but transmitted them much more - Indian maths, philosophy, science and religion all spread much more than Chinese did.

It's also why I didn't vote for America - if America hadn't existed, Germany would still have lost World War 2 (Russia was dominating them on the Eastern Front, and although many of us don't want to admit it, the Eastern Front had most of the troops in the war on them. Japan would've been powerful in south east Asia, but the whole reason that Japan went to war is due to US oil blocks, so who knows what would happen there. But roughly life wouldn't be too different.

If the Mongols hadn't invaded China, toppled Arabic dynasties or pushed all the way to the gates of Vienna, the world would be fundamentally different. If England hadn't created the largest empire of all time, the world would be completely different. Thus my vote goes to these two - have to be the biggest changes in the world if they didn't exist, more so than even some ancient civilizations like the Assyrians.

 

[Syailendra]

So the original question was:

Which civilization had the biggest impact on history?

To answer the question effectively, we need to define impact on history. There are many ways you can do this - religions spread, peoples conquered, land held, time powerful, and probably many others. Personally I think the most effective way to answer this question is to ask the question:

Which civilization not existing would cause the biggest change in how we currently live, as a global population?

This puts much more emphasis on older civilizations, as compounding affects means it's more likely that an older civ will cause more changes. It also answers why I think - and many others - that India has had a greater impact than China. China was extremely insular, so its not existing would have less affect than India, who may have had less actual discoveries, but transmitted them much more - Indian maths, philosophy, science and religion all spread much more than Chinese did.

It's also why I didn't vote for America - if America hadn't existed, Germany would still have lost World War 2 (Russia was dominating them on the Eastern Front, and although many of us don't want to admit it, the Eastern Front had most of the troops in the war on them. Japan would've been powerful in south east Asia, but the whole reason that Japan went to war is due to US oil blocks, so who knows what would happen there. But roughly life wouldn't be too different.

If the Mongols hadn't invaded China, toppled Arabic dynasties or pushed all the way to the gates of Vienna, the world would be fundamentally different. If England hadn't created the largest empire of all time, the world would be completely different. Thus my vote goes to these two - have to be the biggest changes in the world if they didn't exist, more so than even some ancient civilizations like the Assyrians.

one fact that often forgotten. The mongols reach its height after adopting a lot of chinese system. Even Kubilai Khan named himself as emperor of china.

 

[Tyo]

If America hadn't existed it would be up for debate how WWI (and by extension WWII) would've happened, but I don't think that's what really matters on the grander scale - compared to other things at least. It would seriously be up for debate whether countless inventions would have been made, at least in the timeframe that they were. Who knows if Tesla would have been given enough resources to conduct his research on alternating currents? Who knows if flight would have been in use as early? Who knows if the Maxim gun would have came around as early? Would the British be as dominant in its colonial reach without it? Would nuclear power ever pick up momentum, or be tossed as German ravings (if it picked up in Germany in the first place[being that the result of WWI is up for debate at that point.]?) And what about the trade impact America has made? It was always big on trade. Would Japan break isolation as easy as it did without American gunboat diplomacy? If the world did play out similarly to OTL with an allied victory in WWII, does this mean the Soviet block is the dominant power? Would it be farfetched to say that the world would look a lot more red than today?

These are all questions to be considered if we're really wondering how today would look like without America, and that's off the top of my head. While I believe American impact isn't as big as some people make it out to be, saying America hasn't made a substantial impact on today's world is just incorrect.

 

[Silverman6083]

In my opinion it is a crime for anyone not to put down America

Moderator Action: How does this add to the discussion? This is trolling as it provides nothing for discussion except animosity. This type of response will get this thread closed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[dashwinner]

You know any other culture which is truly global? Go to the deepest of Africa and you can bet your life you will be able to buy a Coca Cola or see some Mickey Mouse T-shirt.
Hell, even in North Korea, under threat of the death penalty, does people watch american movies, listen to american music, etc...

It also helps that they have planted their flag on the moon, built the atom bomb, invented rock n roll, blue jeans and whatever you can imagine....

If you have a deep historical understanding of culture, and dont wear the normal "Anti-american"-protective glasses, you will quickly realise that America should probably be in the top three on the list. Its not PC of course, but its simple math.

I'm not sure i'm the one who doesn't have a 'deep historical understanding of culture'. There's nothing 'historical' about your answer, as it is put forward strictly from a 20th century pov. No one can argue America's influence from 1900 onwards. But as noted by someone else, that's not the point of this thread.

As important as rock and roll and blue jeans seem to you, it probably seemed incredibly important to the inventor of chainmail or the gondolin in their respective eras. You speak of historical understanding of culture, then how can you compare events, inventions, theories and aspects of everyday life that are barely a 100 years old to some that are more than 10x older?

You want to compare coca cola to red wine?

american music to mozart?

american movies to shakespeare?

It's got nothing to do with math or political correctness. It's not anti-american at all. I love the states. It's anti-delusions of grandeur.

Off the top of my head: China, Greece, Rome, England. EDIT: I see i'm not the only one who thinks so.

 

[PrimoXanthous]

I'm not sure i'm the one who doesn't have a 'deep historical understanding of culture'. There's nothing 'historical' about your answer, as it is put forward strictly from a 20th century pov. No one can argue America's influence from 1900 onwards. But as noted by someone else, that's not the point of this thread.

As important as rock and roll and blue jeans seem to you, it probably seemed incredibly important to the inventor of chainmail or the gondolin in their respective eras. You speak of historical understanding of culture, then how can you compare events, inventions, theories and aspects of everyday life that are barely a 100 years old to some that are more than 10x older?

You want to compare coca cola to red wine?

american music to mozart?

american movies to shakespeare?

It's got nothing to do with math or political correctness. It's not anti-american at all. I love the states. It's anti-delusions of grandeur.

Off the top of my head: China, Greece, Rome, England. EDIT: I see i'm not the only one who thinks so.

very well said sire!