Which civs should be left out?

[Camikaze]

Hunter/gatherer is probably a bit of an oversimplification. But I do agree that on the grand scale of things, Native American civilizations were not that important. However, they do warrant a place in the game, if only to fill the geographical and chronological void.

 

[Malchar]

Native Americans must have had at least agriculture and bronze working because they clear cut forests to farm corn.

 

[kochman]

Native Americans must have had at least agriculture and bronze working because they clear cut forests to farm corn.

Agriculture, yes... bronze working, no. They used stone tools.

I think they should be included... I initially thought they should get cut... then I thought, why cut anything? I am happy with more civilizations... more options... more opponents... I am making new civs myself all the time now.

There is a very interesting book, called Guns, Germs and Steel, or something like that, by Jared Diamond. Very dry reading, but pretty interesting.
It postulates that east-west trading axis, such as China-Europe, were better, in terms of exchanging knowledge, frequency, etc... whereas N-S axis, like Europe-Africa were almost non-existance... He goes on to provide dozens of reasons why he believes this to be the case. Its certainly a theory.

Anyhow, as I mentioned before, why not have more civs? Civ is all about the what ifs... what if the Aztecs had developed writing 1,000 before the Europeans came? What is this civ had developed this easier... or in game terms... what if I had settled a city by that resource? What if I had built just one more unit to defend this city with? What if I had research currency before code of laws? etc...

 

[Malchar]

Agriculture, yes... bronze working, no. They used stone tools.

[snip]

There is a very interesting book, called Guns, Germs and Steel, or something like that, by Jared Diamond. Very dry reading, but pretty interesting.
It postulates that east-west trading axis, such as China-Europe, were better, in terms of exchanging knowledge, frequency, etc... whereas N-S axis, like Europe-Africa were almost non-existance... He goes on to provide dozens of reasons why he believes this to be the case. Its certainly a theory.

I was just joking about them having bronze working. I don't know for sure either way, but, you see, they had to cut down forests to make farms, and in the game you need... Anyway, I've studied that book and his theory, and it's really quite remarkable. I would suggest it to anyone who's interested in history. It really explains a lot.

 

[kochman]

I would go so far as to say, it is recommended reading for any civ fanatic. Not saying it is 100% accurate, but it is very interesting.

 

[EMT]

The Indians got steamrolled by a lot more than Biology.
I mean, they didn't have the wheel, or writing. How far can you get without those two?
Try playing a game of Civilization and never getting those two techs... let me know how you do?

The Incas and Mayas where both aware of the wheel, but never chose to use it. The Incas had roads, so comparing resource hook ups to backwardness is not a reason. The Incas lost half of the native population to germs alone. The Maya where gone before Spain showed up. The Aztecs existed for only 100 years. Had to clear up some things.

 

[phungus420]

I do agree that America is towards the bottom of historical significance though, out of the civs that made it.

Oh, yeah. I'm sure a nation that spawned the social contract and invented the modern form of government, and the current federal system, the fact that 100 nations model their governmental structure on the US has had such a minor impact

And the automobile, opening up Japan to world trade, the involvement in WWI and WW2 either though direct military action, or through industrial production and Lend Lease were also minor contributions to history.

Lets also forget the impact on piracy when the US destroyed the Barbaries, the fact that the US economic engine busting in 1929 caused a global great depression, and that nearly a quarter of the worlds population speaks English which is the global trade language and the current langua franca, or the invention of the internet, or eliminating Spanish colonies across the globe, and the effect on the Americas caused by the Monroe Doctrine and the Roosevelt Corrallary. Because these too are such minor things in history.

Sure I suppose if you ignore all that you could begin to make a case the US is a minor historical player. But doing so ignores reality. It is either ignorance, arrogance, or simple asshattery to claim otherwise.

 

[kochman]

The Incas and Mayas where both aware of the wheel, but never chose to use it.

Not a good choice was it?
That is the difference, applying knowledge is what matters. Not like they really came up with a better method...
That's a make or break decision... I don't think it was really a "decision" either... more like, they never thought of how they could apply it. You make it sound like they had better plans or something...

 

[Trias]

Oh, yeah. I'm sure a nation that spawned the social contract and invented the modern form of government, and the current federal system, the fact that 100 nations model their governmental structure on the US has had such a minor impact

Although, the US version of democracy was first implemented in the US, most of it was invented by french philosophers.

[...] and that nearly a quarter of the worlds population speaks English which is the global trade language and the current langua franca,

Which happens to be the language of the English civ .

... or the invention of the internet,

The WWW (which is what most people think of when they think of "the internet") was invented at CERN (in Europe) by an Englishman.

Sure I suppose if you ignore all that you could begin to make a case the US is a minor historical player. But doing so ignores reality. It is either ignorance, arrogance, or simple asshattery to claim otherwise.

Although the impact of the US on the last century is unmistakable, it doesn't take away from the fact that the only proper place of the "American civilization" in Civ is as a derivative civ of the "English civilization".

 

[rysmiel]

Sure I suppose if you ignore all that you could begin to make a case the US is a minor historical player. But doing so ignores reality. It is either ignorance, arrogance, or simple asshattery to claim otherwise.

No, it's just perspective.

Nothing that has happened in the past thousand years can be judged important or not, because we're too close to see what all the consequences have been. It's not history yet, it's just slightly old current events.

 

[kochman]

The USA has had WAY more impact, in this short period, than MOST of the civs in the game. Aztecs? Incans? Mali? Ethiopians? Khmer? etc.
So what if English is the language of America, it was almost German, and may very well end up Spanish in some time. Language is a minor detail, and certainly doesn't take away credit for the achievements of the USA (including saving Britain from speaking German). The cultures being close, good. So are the cultures of the British and the Germans. Should the Brits be considered a derivitive of Germany? I mean, the royal family certainly is!

WWW may have been invented by an English man, but the WWW is not the internet. ARPANET (1969) came before CERN (80s) and is acknowledged as the first version of the internet.
Let's not mention the creation of the modern computer, the ones with chips. Not possible without the USA... oh, and the assembly line... moon walks... microwaves, air conditioning (which is gradually catching on in Europe, after decades), in sink garbage disposals (which europe still hasn't caught on to for the most part), MP3s... the list is almost endless...
The history of democracy goes way deeper than French philosophers... though they surely played a part. Doesn't matter... the USA enacted it first, and set the new standard of freedom within the world. How many countries use the US Constitution for their base?

This isn't to discredit other nations and their achievements, but saying America's impact has been limited is like saying the sun isn't as hot as some folks say it must be because it doesn't feel that way to you.
To say America doesn't deserve a slot, and is merely a derivitive of the UK is poppycock. In fact, more people in America are of German descent than British. Tons of other ethnicities in their too.

America is a derivitive of the WORLD. We took people, gave them FREEDOM, and became the top civ in the world in a matter of decades. I understand that causes some fretting, but that is the truth of the matter.
Now... every empire will fall... look for China to claim number one before 100 years is up.

 

[Trias]

(rant)

Whoo, looks like I stepped on someones toes.

You have to admit the idea of the "american civ" starting out as a semi nomadic society is somewhat hysterical.

 

[kochman]

Whoo, looks like I stepped on someones toes.

You have to admit the idea of the "american civ" starting out as a semi nomadic society is somewhat hysterical.

True, but so are most. Very few have been solid through time... Very few started out as semi-nomadic (England sure didn't, it was all the invaders that helped bring it up to snuff...)
This is a reason the Rhye's and Fall Mod is pretty cool. I was playing with the Vikings, and then decided to switch to the Americans just to see how it would go...
Manifest Destiny.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Not a good choice was it?
That is the difference, applying knowledge is what matters. Not like they really came up with a better method...
That's a make or break decision... I don't think it was really a "decision" either... more like, they never thought of how they could apply it. You make it sound like they had better plans or something...

2 good reasons why they didn't adopt the wheel
1. No draft animals for pulling wagons
2. In the case of the Incas mountainous terrain not particularly suited for wheeled vehicles. It took modern engineering to change that
There have usually been good reasons why different peoples developed on different lines. Not a case of some peoples being cleverer or more industrious than others

 

[kochman]

Hmmm... let's think where else wheels could have been applied besides behind draft animals that they didn't have... (such as llamas...)
Pulleys? Those certainly would have been useful in the Incan territories...
Gears?
There's two huge ones that jump immediately to mind in about 1 second of reflection. Of course, hindsight is everything

 

[Camikaze]

in sink garbage disposals

If you're going to use that as evidence for the inclusion of America, can I use the rotary clothes line as evidence for the inclusion of Australia?

 

[kochman]

If you're going to use that as evidence for the inclusion of America, can I use the rotary clothes line as evidence for the inclusion of Australia?

The in sink garbage disposal has been the number 1 convenience I have missed when living abroad (that and 7/11 type stores)

That was just one piece of evidence

 

[AmazonQueen]

Hmmm... let's think where else wheels could have been applied besides behind draft animals that they didn't have... (such as llamas...)
Pulleys? Those certainly would have been useful in the Incan territories...
Gears?
There's two huge ones that jump immediately to mind in about 1 second of reflection. Of course, hindsight is everything

Llamas aren't suitable for pulling wagons. The harness would break their necks
The Incans were no slouches when it came to building as Machu Picchu and other sites show
Many of their agricultural techniques were in advance of anything Europe had developed at the time of their conquest
A societies development is largely determined by its geography

 

[kochman]

Llamas aren't suitable for pulling wagons. The harness would break their necks
The Incans were no slouches when it came to building as Machu Picchu and other sites show
Many of their agricultural techniques were in advance of anything Europe had developed at the time of their conquest
A societies development is largely determined by its geography

Break its neck? What?!
Attach the harness to its BODY, its main frame. Not its neck. Are you for real?
I agree that its geography is important... so is application of ideas, which you seem to be disputing.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Break its neck? What?!
Attach the harness to its BODY, its main frame. Not its neck. Are you for real?
I agree that its geography is important... so is application of ideas, which you seem to be disputing.

Learn how horse collars and similar devices work
They distribute the load onto the neck and shoulders of animals
Both the Incas and Spanish used llamas extensively as pack animals, not as draft animals, so it isn't a case of the Incas failing to come up with the idea

I think you're underestimating the importance of geography
There were no horses or domesticatable cattle native to the Americas at all. Its not a case of the natives failing to domesticate them