Which is Worse?

Which is worse?

  • Shoplifting is worse

    Votes: 11 15.1%
  • Taking money for helping others cheat is worse

    Votes: 21 28.8%
  • Neither are a big deal

    Votes: 3 4.1%
  • Both are serious offenses and you are both bad people

    Votes: 38 52.1%

  • Total voters
    73
I believe they're called examinations brah.

Obviously it would be impossible to police Hygro's type of cheating but thats not really an answer to my post because I never made any claim it was possible. Glad you agree with me brah.
 
Wow... I'm actually surprised so many of you judged me as strongly as you did, helped me look at it from a different angle. I suppose it's a lot worse than I had managed to convince myself it was.

A few bits of additional info, my main business is straight math tutoring I help people with whatever math they want and teach them how to do it for $20 an hour, I know I've done people's take home work in this format but I never ask where it came from and I believe most of it is legitimate homework. But I don't ask where it came from I just explain step by step how to do whatever problem they come to me with. This is at least 90% of the work I get. Occasionally I get people who just want the work done for them and have no interest in learning the material and they ask me how much to do their work all for them, these are usually older people and often people in the army taking online classes, usually from private schools. I charge them around $40-$50 an hour they give me cash and logins for online classes and I take the test from a public computer.

I always justified this by saying these people probably wouldn't make it to graduate and since they were doing online classes with nothing to prevent this cheating it would be stupid for anyone to give a degree coming from such a school any credit. Which btw you shouldn't, online school is very easy to beat with cheating like this.


Thanks for the responses though, you're actually making me rethink the ethics of ever doing that. Even though it has helped me a great deal with supporting myself through school.
Yikes. Okay, the tutoring part is perfectly fine. I tutored people in French and English. It's commendable to explain to people how to do something.

It is NOT commendable to do their assignments for them or take their tests for them. That is grounds for them to be expelled (and you, if you also attend that school). As I said - unethical, morally wrong, reprehensible, and many other similar-meaning adjectives.

Something else that factors into this for me, though: I've been a teacher. My first college degree I took was in Elementary Education. I have also taught music. I firmly believe that there is no point at all in paying for the course if you're not going to learn the material. People who pay others to do their work for them are only cheating themselves, in the long run. And because of this, when I did English essays and found mistakes that I could have fixed but the student wouldn't have learned any lessons from having it fixed, I let them learn the hard way. Obviously this wasn't anything as simple as a spelling mistake, misplaced semicolon, or whatever. But I had an insanely strict English instructor my first year there, and learned from the experience. I felt they should have that same benefit.

To some extent, I must admit that this also applied to some of my clients. There were some who accepted my recommendations to brush up on their basic writing skills. Sometimes they'd phone me even while working on their rough draft and ask questions related to grammar. And some never did learn. I sometimes wonder what became of them after they did their two years here and went on to Edmonton or Calgary and suddenly found themselves without benefit of a typist who actually took the time and energy to do more than just an adequate job. It was a proud day for me when one of my clients went off to the University of Calgary and, a few months later, phoned and said he had a term paper he wanted me to type - he said it was worth 50% of his grade and he didn't want to trust it to anybody but ME.

Something to ponder when you do somebody else's work for them: What if your work isn't good enough for them to pass the course? What happens if you screw up - do you offer a money-back guarantee? How would they make you refund their money if they weren't satisfied?

One of my clients, the first time we met, asked if I guaranteed she'd get an A. I told her, No. I do NOT guarantee an A. What I did guarantee was that I would do my very best to help her get the best grade she possibly could - but I couldn't turn a C or B paper into an A if the material wasn't there to begin with. The research and writing was all on her to do. I ended up having this client for two years, plus she recommended me to several of her friends and classmates. And she was a very good writer, so I ended up learning in turn.
 
I agree with you, you will have to cite and understand the point before you made it. But initially you failed to even think it was an important point, you ignored it, forgotten about it. Without outside intereference you would of not included it and been graded accordingly.

You may as well get the lecturer to write out every single theory and event which is crucial to the essay and as long as you dillegently reseach and cite it you will get the top grade everytime.

...um...this is how science works.
If you read something in a scientific journal, e.g. Science or Nature, then something like this happened.
You write down your paper. You submit it to the magazine. There is an editor, who chooses 2 reviewers who get the paper to read and criticize it. What they criticize is up to them, but might also include critical hints what's missing or has to be included else. They might even say "Why did you not attempt the same like XY et al. in this other publication?"
What you do with it is up to you. And it's definitely not so that the work is done at this point. You might require new experiments. Or just an explanation and a rewrite, which is itself also a big work.
And it's not cheating. If you do the work, then it's all legit.
 
Science publications and student assignments can be awfully different.
 
I'm not talking about submitting science papers for peer review brah. When did I ever say in any of my posts thats how science progresses?
I'm talking undergraduate students who have to write an essay on a topic and have to hand it in to be graded by a lecturer.
 
I disagree. A world class reseacher is looking to further knowledge in his field. He will get other academics to critique his work to try and get closer to the truth.
A typical student essay is used to determine the ability of the student. If you get external help, then your grade is unreflective of the student you are. There is a moral issue there.

Two completely different motives.
 
I think you're viewing the essay with too strictly a metric. It's purpose is not merely to evaluate, but to teach. Students are supposed to discuss and exchange ideas with one another. In fact, I'd say that if a student sat down an wrote a undergraduate paper single-handedly, they did it wrong.

If you only want to evaluate their current knowledge, give them an examination.
 
Her crime has a victim. Yours does not.

Oh but it does. The victims are the students who did not complete the online tests themselves and are now suffering through life without the knowledge they could have gained. He is robbing them of their education and that's way worse than petty shoplifting.
 
I think his crime's victims are the students who haven't paid for, how shall we say, fake achievement. The classmates that did their own work and actually learned the things that their grades and degrees are supposed to represent the accomplishment of. Sure there are a lot of ways to buy advantages, but this is pretty easy to identify and condemn.
 
I believe they're called examinations brah.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at.

Oh but it does. The victims are the students who did not complete the online tests themselves and are now suffering through life without the knowledge they could have gained. He is robbing them of their education and that's way worse than petty shoplifting.

I'd say the honest students who don't cheat are more the victims.
 
I agree with you, you will have to cite and understand the point before you made it. But initially you failed to even think it was an important point, you ignored it, forgotten about it. Without outside intereference you would of not included it and been graded accordingly.

You may as well get the lecturer to write out every single theory and event which is crucial to the essay and as long as you dillegently reseach and cite it you will get the top grade everytime.

I think you're missing the point. A reason to encourage peer editing is precisely so that you can learn more than just what the professor alone will teach. You're drawing a line in the sand but it's not clear where or why the line is where it is. At what point do we disallow conversation and the exchange of ideas? At a university, we should never disallow the exchange of ideas. We should always encourage it. We can only demand that the work itself is done by the individual if the grading is for the individual.

For many papers just testing knowledge, btw, the professors do provide all the material. It's up to you to formulate your argument.

I disagree. A world class reseacher is looking to further knowledge in his field. He will get other academics to critique his work to try and get closer to the truth.
A typical student essay is used to determine the ability of the student. If you get external help, then your grade is unreflective of the student you are. There is a moral issue there.

Two completely different motives.
About a third of my instructors are "world class researchers". And yes they get ideas from undergrads all the time.

But if you get "external help", what's the difference consulting a book or consulting a fellow student? The book probably has better information anyway. The best student is the one who learns the most, can take that learning and utilize it, and can demonstrate that utilization and learning in an effective way. If that means brainstorming with another student, then brainstorm. If that means helping each other edit, then do that. You aren't helping someone when you are doing their work for them, which is partially why that's what's banned.
 
They may be equally bad morally (I couldn't care less), but shoplifting trinkets is also extremely stupid, unsophisticated and low-life thing to do. Comparable to peeing in a corner, really. If somebody does that, you are not going to lecture them about morality, you just stick their nose in it.
 
They may be equally bad morally (I couldn't care less), but shoplifting trinkets is also extremely stupid, unsophisticated and low-life thing to do. Comparable to peeing in a corner, really. If somebody does that, you are not going to lecture them about morality, you just stick their nose in it.

That's pretty much a given if you're going for a night out in the town.

Even when not drinking.
 
That's pretty much a given if you're going for a night out in the town.

Even when not drinking.

What's wrong with you son? When you're out on the town, you tend to be at places, that, you know, have bathrooms.
 
What's wrong with you son? When you're out on the town, you tend to be at places, that, you know, have bathrooms.
??
You try getting to bathrooms after traveling public transit stations that have kept their bathrooms locked since early September of 2001, to walk through a dense city at midnight to get in 20 minute lines.

This is par for the course. If you aren't peeing on the streets you're definitely not out in town on a late night.
 
Well, for the record i completely disagree with Hygro's position. Ain't much else to say brah.
 
So you think education is to demonstrate a student's ability to test well in a vacuum against the professors assigned material and not about educating the student to their academic fullest potential.
 
Nope. How in earth did you get that from any of my posts?
 
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