While We Wait: Boredom Strikes Back

[Shadowbound]

No he has a history of being unreliable and can give advice to unreliable people from a position of authority and knowledge having been through all that. I didnt say it was perfect, it was only a passing comparison I didnt expect to do a ploughing thesis in the damn thing

The extension of a poor analogy is a rhetorical technique I love.

If he wants to be the community expert on unreliability, then he is perfectly welcome to make it official. Don't expect anyone to take his advice, though, or find him any less annoying.

Hey everyone!

So we finally got moved out of the CivIII Stories forum? Sweet.

Technically we moved out. In reality, there's still a link to the forum there.

 

[TheLizardKing]

Two parents and their child are going on a trip. Before every stop, the annoying child cries from the back 'Are we there yet?', despite the fact the parents previously told the child the ETA. Does the child's constant questioning make the parents drive any faster? No. Does it annoy the hell out of the parents? Absolutely.

 

[Terrance888]

community expert on unreliability

He is good at doing that, isn't he?

 

[~Darkening~]

How about those who can't wait for the updates just quit boohoo-ing and whine somewhere else? seriously, if the game is running too slowly, go find something else that will keep you entertained. You're getting a free service done at the Mod's pace, and really you shouldn't be out complaining. So what if it's slow- some of the best NESes run at a snail's pace. If you can do better, and retain the same quality, then that's just swell for yah- go run your own nes. Otherwise, quit complaining and actually do something useful for once.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

1- Also, as I have explained I don't see why players should have a commitment to an NES in the first place. Evidently my argument for why is too complicated, at least for Abbadon.
2- Baiting them in public puts public pressure on them. A moderator can simply ignore my PMs much more easily.
3- I did say it was about a one in a hundred bet- it rarely works, but it's better than nothing.

1. They should because a moderator puts in effort to include them, and often has to alter the game to accomodate their presence. This implies an amount of trust from the moderators towards the players, which should be respected.

2. Moderators updating because there's peer pressure on them is very unhealthy in the long-term. I know that happened/happens to me a lot with LINESII, when I now realize that the setting has a lot of holes that I didn't realize when I was creating it as a 15 year old, holes which are kind of tricky to pave over without massive retcons. Also, I think that moderators who ignore PMs are just as likely to ignore posts in the forum.

3. I think there are more productive uses of your time that would do more to help a NES- writing a nice, clear story can be very encouraging for a moderator.

Hey everyone!

So we finally got moved out of the CivIII Stories forum? Sweet.

Hey there Plexus, long time no see!

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Two parents and their child are going on a trip. Before every stop, the annoying child cries from the back 'Are we there yet?', despite the fact the parents previously told the child the ETA. Does the child's constant questioning make the parents drive any faster? No. Does it annoy the hell out of the parents? Absolutely.

My tendency is only to ask about updates once the mod's self-imposed deadline is past, making your analogy invalid.

You're getting a free service done at the Mod's pace, and really you shouldn't be out complaining.

The mod has promised me something they haven't delivered- I have a right to complain.

If you can do better, and retain the same quality, then that's just swell for yah- go run your own nes.

If that's a serious challenge, I'm willing to run one and do better- I'm a lousy mod objectively speaking, but even I can set myself long ETAs and keep to them.

In the past, I have actually done reasonably by adapting my style- see NevNES.

1. They should because a moderator puts in effort to include them, and often has to alter the game to accomodate their presence. This implies an amount of trust from the moderators towards the players, which should be respected.

Very rarely does the mod have to make much additional effort per player- that's only the case . Not to mention, the mod likely wants and expects players, or else they wouldn't have made the NES.

2. Moderators updating because there's peer pressure on them is very unhealthy in the long-term. I know that happened/happens to me a lot with LINESII, when I now realize that the setting has a lot of holes that I didn't realize when I was creating it as a 15 year old, holes which are kind of tricky to pave over without massive retcons. Also, I think that moderators who ignore PMs are just as likely to ignore posts in the forum.

a- You shouldn't have started an NES at 15.
b- It depends whether or not one person requesting an update rightly leads to more peer pressure as it should.

 

[~Darkening~]

Posted by Neverwonagame3
The mod has promised me something they haven't delivered- I have a right to complain.

BS. It really doesn't matter what the mod says or promises, in the end this is a free service and you have no right to complain. Write one of them a check, and then you do- but not until that moment. and despite the rather minuscule amount of attention I've paid to you, I highly doubt you could run a NES better than Iggy or NK. (Thats the nice way of me calling BS on you again.)

 

[Terrance888]

1. Yeah, I can agree with that. But things do turn up (as I see a lot of). If you just want to know if it is dead or not, ask via PM. If you actually want to make them do it faster, write a story about time stopping.

2. About a free product? If we all complain, there would be no NESes to complain about. Thank god most of the complaining is concentrated.

3. Can you link it for me? I can't find it.

4. What do you mean? I have experienced the multipier effect with additional players: more plans to interweave, more things to make rulings about, more stuff relying on interplayer relations. Each player increases complexity. After about 5-10, every additional player adds much more to the work load. A mod is very lucky to have much following and able to do all that work in time!

5. I started my first played NES at 11. So?
As for peer pressure, it would be better to organize a bunch of players to PM or post at the same time. I've done that before and it is much more effective than individual whining.

 

[qoou]

NWAG, I'm just curious: do you really go into all NESes "playing to win"? I mean, how do you even define "win"?

 

[Terrance888]

By not being Curbstomped by the first Player-Player war.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

The mod has promised me something they haven't delivered- I have a right to complain.

You may have a right to complain if you are promised something that you do not receive, but do keep in mind that the moderators are sacrificing significantly greater amounts of time for nothing more than the sense of accomplishment, the appreciation of their peers and, on occasion, sandwiches (BTW, still waiting for that Grilled Cheese Thlayli).

If that's a serious challenge, I'm willing to run one and do better- I'm a lousy mod objectively speaking, but even I can set myself long ETAs and keep to them.

How long, out of curiosity, and what is the setting of the NES? I'm interested.

Very rarely does the mod have to make much additional effort per player- that's only the case . Not to mention, the mod likely wants and expects players, or else they wouldn't have made the NES.

I can not speak for all mods, so their voices on this topic would be greatly appreciated, but in my case, I have detailed plans for the setting, and my NPCs have their own goals and schemes going on, which are almost invariably turned on their heads by the arrival of new players. I don't begrudge them that, I greatly appreciate an active player providing their own directions for a country, but the transition is a significant change. Beyond that, it takes significantly more time to closely follow someone's detailed and carefully-written orders than it does to work from the general plan you know that a given NPC possesses, so every additional player involved in an update will add to the time required to complete said update.

a- You shouldn't have started an NES at 15.

I started an NES at 14 before that NWAG, and I'd do it again younger if I could. But the big deal is that I've changed and developed a lot as a person in the last 5 years, and that'll likely happen more in the next 5. If you don't start now, you'll never improve!

b- It depends whether or not one person requesting an update rightly leads to more peer pressure as it should.

I... don't think that I understand this sentence. However, I don't think it addresses the point that peer pressure is ultimately an unhealthy fuel for a NES.

4. What do you mean? I have experienced the multipier effect with additional players: more plans to interweave, more things to make rulings about, more stuff relying on interplayer relations. Each player increases complexity. After about 5-10, every additional player adds much more to the work load.

Precisely. It is hard to coordinate between a bunch of autonomous actors working in concert or conflict with each other.

5. I started my first played NES at 11. So?

If you can write, you can NES!

 

[SKILORD]

a- You shouldn't have started an NES at 15.

Yeah, because Neverending Stories are serious business.

If people don't update when they say they would I guess I do ask about it sometimes, but I rarely let it bother me as much as you clearly do. Again, this is probably because you consider it serious business which is a perspective that, maybe, you should evaluate.

 

[TheLizardKing]

I can not speak for all mods, so their voices on this topic would be greatly appreciated, but in my case, I have detailed plans for the setting, and my NPCs have their own goals and schemes going on, which are almost invariably turned on their heads by the arrival of new players. I don't begrudge them that, I greatly appreciate an active player providing their own directions for a country, but the transition is a significant change. Beyond that, it takes significantly more time to closely follow someone's detailed and carefully-written orders than it does to work from the general plan you know that a given NPC possesses, so every additional player involved in an update will add to the time required to complete said update.

I play my NES's through NPC's. I develop them, into what could pose a challenge to players. With that, on some occasions (sadly) I've become attached enough to them to hesitate to allow players to join in as them, if I wasn't sure they'd do them justice. Of course, I never grew that attached.. but you get the idea.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Similar thoughts from me, it is a sometimes difficult step of faith to entrust the formation of a nation of your design and leadership to someone else. Fortunately, it's not usually that huge of an issue, but it often is with large NPCs.

 

[Imago]

I kind of enjoy watching players smash my NPCs. Sense of accomplishment + no disappointed players = good in my book.

 

[TheLizardKing]

Imago, you're sick.

 

[Imago]

I edited a little to explain. Not sure if you saw that.

 

[TheLizardKing]

No, I haven't. But a few still come to mind. China, Oceania, Poland, Canada.. etc. ;P

 

[Starlife]

Whew. I hope NESing isn't the way you describe it, Neverwon. I'd like to think I am a human being and not a monkey doing tricks for players.

I get attached not only to my NPCs, but to every aspect of my world. And like TLK, I don't mean overly attached or anything. I like the process of players conquering/absorbing NPCs. Even though I had developed that NPC (the longer they remain NPC, the more they are developed), it is fulfilling to me (as well as the player) to see the player's plans come to full fruition.

Also, think about what an update is. More than 10 people sending you their hopes and dreams and how they plan to accomplish them, in a detailed fashion. They are writing stories all the while, which also need to be read to have a comprehensive update. The mod sits down to write, almost completely selflessly (the selfish part is in the sense of accomplishment Iggy mentioned earlier), attempting to weave together these detailed, lengthy PMs while also reconciling those orders with the general setting of the NES, all previous updates, and certain private things only the mod knows that the players do not. I am new at modding NES, but to me it is exhausting. It takes me many different 'sessions' to read orders and write an update.

Mods get nothing material from it - they are using their time to post an update to a game they created on the Internet - and it is their creation, so naturally you would do well to help them feel as psychologically healthy as possible.

 

[Imago]

No, I haven't. But a few still come to mind. China, Oceania, Poland, Canada.. etc. ;P

Those were PCs, which I did have qualms about killing.