While We Wait: Boredom Strikes Back

[Birdjaguar]

I went ahead and removed the "quoted by Abbadon" since I think that was what you were pointing at.

 

[North King]

Abbadon's name is mentioned twice. Which one causes you trouble?

You'll have to be a little more specific -- in the context of PDMA or the context of memorializing vs. welcoming?

For the former,

Copied and pasted from the Previous Thread, In fond Memory of Abaddon.

sounds very much like a eulogy. Abaddon, as far as I can tell, is not dead. He was banned. Saying "in fond memory" of a banned member implies the moderators were wrong to ban that person in the first place -- something which is both needless and against the forum rules.

For the latter, the fact is that a new member will be rolling over the thread and see "Copied and Pasted from the previous thread, in fond memory of Abaddon" rather than "Welcome to NESing! This thread is here to answer any and all questions you..." Something tells me a newbie is more likely to click on the latter link.

Presentation, as I have found out in my numerous online activities, matters a lot.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

I'll agree with NK there. Something welcoming is what we want most. New NESers can be initiated in the dark knowledge of Abaddon after they've arrived.

 

[Kraznaya]

You'll have to be a little more specific -- in the context of PDMA or the context of memorializing vs. welcoming?

For the former,



sounds very much like a eulogy. Abaddon, as far as I can tell, is not dead. He was banned. Saying "in fond memory" of a banned member implies the moderators were wrong to ban that person in the first place -- something which is both needless and against the forum rules.

For the latter, the fact is that a new member will be rolling over the thread and see "Copied and Pasted from the previous thread, in fond memory of Abaddon" rather than "Welcome to NESing! This thread is here to answer any and all questions you..." Something tells me a newbie is more likely to click on the latter link.

Presentation, as I have found out in my numerous online activities, matters a lot.

this, with the addition that threads are most readable and editable when presented in non-quoted format, such as here

 

[Birdjaguar]

You'll have to be a little more specific -- in the context of PDMA or the context of memorializing vs. welcoming?

For the former,



sounds very much like a eulogy. Abaddon, as far as I can tell, is not dead. He was banned. Saying "in fond memory" of a banned member implies the moderators were wrong to ban that person in the first place -- something which is both needless and against the forum rules.

For the latter, the fact is that a new member will be rolling over the thread and see "Copied and Pasted from the previous thread, in fond memory of Abaddon" rather than "Welcome to NESing! This thread is here to answer any and all questions you..." Something tells me a newbie is more likely to click on the latter link.

Presentation, as I have found out in my numerous online activities, matters a lot.

I had missed the roll over display and fixed that by removing the quotes. Welcome to NESing is front and center at the top for all to see even when you roll over the thread.

As I have said, there is no PDMA in that post. Posting sentiment for someone who has contributed to NESing s not against the rules. You and Kraz are the ones discussing his PB.

 

[North King]

As I have said, there is no PDMA in that post. Posting sentiment for someone who has contributed to NESing s not against the rules. You and Kraz are the ones discussing his PB.

Public discussion of actions taken or not taken by moderators or admins is not permitted. If you have a problem with something a moderator has done, then PM the moderator concerned. If you are not aware of which moderator made the action, then PM one of the moderators of that particular forum. Moderators are required to answer you and justify their actions, but they are not necessarily required to agree with you. Please give any mod pmed at least 24 hours to respond. If you do not get a response to the PM within that time frame or are not happy with the response you did get, then you can request a review (see details below). In your PMs, it is highly recommended that you be polite. There are occasions where moderators get something wrong, but generally this is a perception issue, and they may not have seen something in the same way that you have. Remember this if you want to have a constructive discussion with the moderators.

General discussion of how and why moderators do what they do are permitted in the Site Feedback forum when the discussion is in the spirit of improving the forum. Discussing specific incidents of warnings, infractions, bans, specific posters or moderators is not allowed. A statement of a fact of a warning, infraction or ban you yourself have received without value judgements is allowed. Publicly discussing a specific instance as a "hypothetical" is not allowed.

from http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Specifically, I would question your definition of the word "discuss." The only way we are "discussing" the ban is in the sense that we are acknowledging it happened. Now admittedly I'm forced to interpret the rules a little here because they are not specific when it comes to "stating a fact" about someone other than oneself -- but I highly doubt it is the intention of the rules to say that we can never mention a permaban, ever. That's absolutely ridiculous -- unless you want us to treat it like it never happened in the first place, which is equally ridiculous and smacks of some kind of bizarro-world Orwellianism.

If this is in fact not the case, then I have been misinformed as to the rules and I will therefore cease discussing permabans of other members.

However,

Please observe this statement:

Copied and pasted from the Previous Thread. In fond Memory of Abaddon.

Specifically: "In fond Memory of Abaddon." This is roughly similar to what you might find on a tombstone (I'm not going to cite specific examples here because I feel like we're all adults to one degree or another). Abaddon, as we are aware, did not die -- as for what did happen to him, that is a matter of Moderator Action and will not be discussed further except as is necessary to outline this argument.

The fact is that this Moderator Action has resulted in what is in forum terms functionally equivalent to a death. But treating it like a death, which [almost] everyone views as a tragedy, means that the above quote treating it as a tragedy. Treating it tragically (again, I don't want to link to a definition because we're all adults) means that we are passing judgement on the Moderator Action as a bad thing.

This is PDMA.

You can't simply brush it off as "memorializing someone who greatly helped the NESing community" because it's an utterly inappropriate context for such a memorial.

Moreover, since a memorial is by its very nature eulogizing someone who is lost, it is implicitly a critique of the Moderator Action and thus PDMA.




Also, I'm sorry for continuing this discussion in a public forum; if you want we can move it to PMs. But I feel like treating one as PDMA and the other as not PDMA is a very unbalanced reading of the rules.

 

[spryllino]

I agree with NK here. What the hell is the point in crediting Abaddon? I mean, even if he were universally liked and admired, etc., it would be completely useless to credit him and worse than useless, as NK has pointed out, because it distracts the new reader's attention from NESing to Abaddon, aside from the point that the thread isn't actually all Abaddon's work but Thlayli's too. But even if that weren't the case, what about the dozens of departed NESers (some of whom might even actually be dead?) who have no memorial, while you as a member of staff jolly well ought to see Abaddon brought it on himself?

 

[Boundless]

I am sure this discussion is making a bigger issue of it than any new reader seeing the name Abaddon might. Might as well call him Voldemort in your efforts to cleanse his name from these forums.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

The issue is that it is the view of several members of the community that Abaddon did not contribute a great deal to NESing, beyond creating a lot of superfluous threads. Personally, I think that it is reasonable to have new stickies with users who can edit their posts, and I think it is unnecessary to have a memorial for Abaddon in a thread that, by all rights, shouldn't have to refer to any NESers in specific.

 

[spryllino]

I have posted some suggestions on the NES notice board, for the improvement of that page as a resource for newcomers, and I would like it if thomas, Bird, and others could give them due consideration.

 

[Angst]

The issue is that it is the view of several members of the community that Abaddon did not contribute a great deal to NESing, beyond creating a lot of superfluous threads.

The issue is also that those several NESers are uptight and do not realize that Abaddon's prominence caused regular influxes of players. Which is severely healthy for this subforum, since those several NESers don't bother to work for that. Also, there's the fact that he's, after all, one of the few people who always updates consistently and runs trustfully. Lastly, those several NESers should have no last say in what is appropriate for CFC and no authority in this forum regardless what they have convinced themselves. It is for CFC or Birdjaguar to rule.

The NESing subforum is populated with a subsection people running around and declaring everything smart-or-worthless on their little thrones, and it's sickening to me. It's like a Pretentious Old Man's Club, and it's not good. Abaddon was one of those people who made the forum accesible for newbies because he simply wanted his threads to have a lot of players, and he hooked a bunch of people in the process.

The aforementioned subsection of dudes think of the forum as their own, which is natural when you have spent so much time in here. CFC is kinda my own second home, which of course means that I feel some attachment to this subforum, but I don't want to freeze people out from my home that have done me nothing wrong.

I think Birdjaguar's opposing reaction was mainly that of bewilderment and slight annoyment. He simply thought you guys were overreacting from reading Abaddon's name. And you are. Personally, I didn't like that the Notice Board (Or w/e it was) was in a quote but there was no reason to spend two pages bickering whether a line should be there or not. thomas.beruberg could have changed that perfectly on his own. Newbies don't care about Abaddon. His name is merely taboo to you guys - do you really think so little of him that you need to spend so many posts declaring wildly that he should be cleansed from this forum? I agree that OPs need to be changed, but there's no reason to make him the equivalent of Bloody Mary. (The mirror one.)

I think you have brains of scholars but maturity of children. While you may fit the roles of your role-played lords in your games, it's never appropriate to be a douche to other people simply from being unsmart. Didn't Abby just get banned? Yes. Spend your tiny worlds celebrating that and don't spend your sole procrastination on further cleansing the traces of Abaddon from your precious home, because seriously guys, he got permabanned. He isn't coming back. Don't spend time on him. He's past to this forum. Gone. Goodbye. Spend some effing time hosting NESes, writing stories, updating, idling in neschat, whatever. Do what's healthy for the forum, not what's making it more your vision of a petty man's hangout.

And sure, I might be overreacting too, but it's more because of a general trend, the things that are unsaid in this forum, things that I've been told over PMs or neschat, etc. You guys know what I'm talking about, don't act like this is the only thing that makes you look bad in my eyes.

 

[SKILORD]

The problem has little to nothing to do with Abby.

When Kraz started, I wanted to say "What an elegant way to dance on a grave." But at this point we are well beyond that. Abaddon can't post here anymore, he can't make problems here, and the truth is that somewhere in between the grave dancers and the mourners a great many of us give not the first crap.

But I do agree with the reasonable sentiment that we should work on making this threads a welcoming place for new members, rather than a monument to someone who left in disgrace, and whose mention garnishes this much random drama.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Thank you all for your thoughts on this matter. The public discussion is now over. I am locking this thread to make way for a new WWW. Any reference to this matter in the new thread will be deleted.