While We Wait: Part 2

[Symphony D.]

Bad TerrisH. Bad. Those are not properly color sampled. The idea was to, you know, like, ask for the real ones, and stuff, and to use a different one than me to boot. Critical Failure!

 

[MjM]

Hey Symph, if you made an Iron Cross blue and black like all those other symbols/pictures, I'd wear it.

 

[Azale]

I think they called us cultists, Alex.

As to the argument between real world fresh starts and cradle NESes, I'm with Israelite here. I like the idea that if I put the thought in and check out geography when I plan my battles I can be rewarded. With cradle NESes, it seems like I'd be making **** up about someone else's nation if I tried to use geography.

You know I'm in BirdNES to right? One day Europe will be FORCED to recognize the Asians...hehehe.

 

[das]

Well, alex and you certainly seem more proactive (as far as colonial expansion goes) than most European maritime nations; I'd say that there are fair chances of Japan becoming one of the primary colonial powers, perhaps even on the level of Britain (you know what you should do if that happens? You should export exotic drugs to England, ofcourse ). However, I'm fortunately way too far inland for any of you Asians to conquer me, with the possible exception of Contempt (but does he even count as an Asian?).

Have I mentioned yet that BirdNES is very awesome? I really wish it would go on for long enough for us to reach a modern world equivalent, because if present trends are any indication it would be vastly different, and in a very original way too (Asian colonial powers! halted Ottoman expansion, and resulting strong Egypt and Persia! Poland with a real central government! And those ongoing European wars can lead to many interesting and diverse futures, ofcourse).

 

[Azale]

His level of detail, especially with Europe, is incredible. He adjusts to the players he has aswell (some relative newbies in Iberia, a whole influx of new people in Europe), and makes everyone feel welcome. Even King Ryan.

Plus he is a master of the written word

 

[das]

Precisely. To add more praise, its the best historical NES ever (at least, for colonial times). Amon's NESes set in this time period were also awesome, but I wouldn't really call them historical, considering what I was allowed to do there.

 

[North King]

Yes. Every little facet of geography can have a HUGE effect on battle tactics. However, that is beside the point.

Indeed it is, as people stopped telling their neighbors where they were going to fight after Ancient Greece.

The point is that the complexity of it all is beyond a human created world, and it always will be no matter what. For a random map NES to have the same depth of complexity as an earth map NES the players, or at least the mod, would need the creativity of Tolkein

In terms of map-making, Tolkien levels aren't unachievable at all. The areas where Tolkien really shone were in linguistics and history, not geography.

and either 50 hours in a day or two months between updates, as well as no life whatsoever outside of NESing.

That's more than a slight exaggeration.

As I have said before, while cradle NESes have many advantages (most important being the unlimited outlets for creativity) they fall short of fresh start NESes in some areas, namely depth and complexity (and, similarly, the wealth of information available to players to utilize). They are two different sorts of NESes with two somewhat different kinds of associated experiences.

I think the fact that you're creating your own world outweighs the disadvantages of less depth--in fact, the less depth aspect actually has no real bearing, since the depth of the world and the complexity of the nations is completely up to the players. Unless, of course, the mod were to make up their own world entirely from scratch, but who would actually put the massive required effort into doing that? So it's up to the players.

 

[alex994]

Well, alex and you certainly seem more proactive (as far as colonial expansion goes) than most European maritime nations; I'd say that there are fair chances of Japan becoming one of the primary colonial powers, perhaps even on the level of Britain (you know what you should do if that happens? You should export exotic drugs to England, ofcourse ). However, I'm fortunately way too far inland for any of you Asians to conquer me, with the possible exception of Contempt (but does he even count as an Asian?).

Have I mentioned yet that BirdNES is very awesome? I really wish it would go on for long enough for us to reach a modern world equivalent, because if present trends are any indication it would be vastly different, and in a very original way too (Asian colonial powers! halted Ottoman expansion, and resulting strong Egypt and Persia! Poland with a real central government! And those ongoing European wars can lead to many interesting and diverse futures, ofcourse).

Me? A colonial power! Never! What ever gives you that impression? Personally speaking, I think the players in charge of the OTL great powers in bird's nes are responsible for what has happened. Just look at Spain and their obsession with the Holy Land and their sending of craftsmen and etc to help the Aztecs instead of sending Hernando Cortez!

And Egypt's the "Islamic Empire" I wonder how that'll result down the line.... For the record, if anyone's shipping exotic drugs to England, it's ME! I WILL HAVE REVENGE FOR CHINA!

 

[das]

Personally speaking, I think the players in charge of the OTL great powers in bird's nes are responsible for what has happened.

Well frankly only Spain is really goofing off, if we compare with OTL. Portugal is doing just fine; not so well in Brazil perhaps, but quite acceptably in the Indian Ocean. Neither England nor France was a historical colonial power at this point. And the Kalmar Union and Scotland seem to be doing their best to fill in the vacuum anyway.

Don't expect me to create any colonies though, at least outside of the Pontic steppe.

 

[alex994]

Well frankly only Spain is really goofing off, if we compare with OTL. Portugal is doing just fine; not so well in Brazil perhaps, but quite acceptably in the Indian Ocean. Neither England nor France was a historical colonial power at this point. And the Kalmar Union and Scotland seem to be doing their best to fill in the vacuum anyway.

Don't expect me to create any colonies though, at least outside of the Pontic steppe.

"Goofing off" is perhaps too weak a phrase Stretching from Northern Mexico to the Andes, they also possessed the great silver and gold mines in Peru that would have been used to fund all their wars for a century or two! Wouldn't it be terrible if say... a minor Asian power conquered Peru and then went on an expansion spree? Just terrible

Well, it would be difficult to explain why or why not you would want colonies in the Pontic Steppe. I mean, what about Muscovy?

 

[The Strategos]

I think that historians will look back on the highly destructive Calusian-Spanish Wars as the defining event that sapped Spanish will to conquer the new world and turned them towards Europe. If only the Spanish had avoided the swamps of Florda...

 

[Israelite9191]

You know Israelite, with your mapmaking skill and update style, you could probably pull off the first ancient-to-modern fresh start NES.

Come summer, I may just attempt that, although before then I may do an alt hist based on the Hungary timeline I am developing.

Indeed it is, as people stopped telling their neighbors where they were going to fight after Ancient Greece.

Terrain is still deeply important. In stKNES5 I won deeply important victories several times utilizing complexity of Israeli, Anatolian, Iraqi, Balkan, and Sicilian geography. That is also how I won battles elsewhere, the one that jumps to my mind is Bermuda in ITNES II. Besides, it is not just the small things that are important. The contrasts between highlands, lowlands, minor river valleys, land straights, sea straights, shallow bays, deep oceans, etc. are key, and that vast array simply does not exist in random maps.

In terms of map-making, Tolkien levels aren't unachievable at all. The areas where Tolkien really shone were in linguistics and history, not geography.

I believe you misunderstood me. I am not only speaking of geography, I am also speaking of culture, history, and linguistics. The history and diversity of cultures of earth is something that is simply unreplicable. Even Tolkein, the greatest mind to ever venture into that field, would not be able to replicate earth's and humanity's diversity.

That's more than a slight exaggeration.

I think it might be something of an understatement actually. Just stop and think for a minute, please, and contemplate earth and humanity. Contemplate the thousands upon thousands, even millions, of various cultures that have existed on this earth. Contemplate the the innumerable rivers and streams, hills and valleys, mountains and gorges, deserts and wetlands, jungles and forests, tundra and swamps, etc. etc. that fill this planet to the brim. Just contemplate it for even a minute, and then tell me if you think I was exaggerating.

I think the fact that you're creating your own world outweighs the disadvantages

This is the basic dissagreement. If you find that you can enjoy a NES just as much even though it is not the real world and you are not shaping what is truly a new history of the world, then G-d bless. For me, there is simply no replacement for a true fresh start in the fullness of the experience.

 

[das]

Well, it would be difficult to explain why or why not you would want colonies in the Pontic Steppe.

Meaning in this case the steppe regions that I had already conquered, near Crimea. Colonies there would make sense, like the OTL Russian colonies there did.

I think that historians will look back on the highly destructive Calusian-Spanish Wars as the defining event that sapped Spanish will to conquer the new world and turned them towards Europe.

Yes, they'll do that eventually. In popular perception - at least in Europe - King Ryan would be considered a more likely culprit. The moral is that sometimes even popular perception can be close to truth.

Although, didn't Birdjaguar intentionally buff up the Amerinds (well, decreased the damage done to them by the epidemics; but in the long term one might consider that buffing up)?

Even Tolkein, the greatest mind to ever venture into that field, would not be able to replicate earth's and humanity's diversity.

What's the point of replicating it, however? I really doubt that Tolkien ever wanted to do that.

Anyway, both Earth map NESes and random map NESes have their own advantages; the advantages of both have already been mentioned. I suppose that one could acquire some of the Earth NES advantages in a random map NES by applying a lot of effort and imagination (or a really good program or system; these do seem to help out, I hear).

 

[North King]

Terrain is still deeply important. In stKNES5 I won deeply important victories several times utilizing complexity of Israeli, Anatolian, Iraqi, Balkan, and Sicilian geography. That is also how I won battles elsewhere, the one that jumps to my mind is Bermuda in ITNES II. Besides, it is not just the small things that are important. The contrasts between highlands, lowlands, minor river valleys, land straights, sea straights, shallow bays, deep oceans, etc. are key, and that vast array simply does not exist in random maps.

Oh, terrain is important, but not nearly as important as you make it out to be. To put too much focus onto terrain is to create an inflexible plan, unable to deal with possible changes in location.

I believe you misunderstood me. I am not only speaking of geography, I am also speaking of culture, history, and linguistics. The history and diversity of cultures of earth is something that is simply unreplicable. Even Tolkein, the greatest mind to ever venture into that field, would not be able to replicate earth's and humanity's diversity.

I think it might be something of an understatement actually. Just stop and think for a minute, please, and contemplate earth and humanity. Contemplate the thousands upon thousands, even millions, of various cultures that have existed on this earth. Contemplate the the innumerable rivers and streams, hills and valleys, mountains and gorges, deserts and wetlands, jungles and forests, tundra and swamps, etc. etc. that fill this planet to the brim. Just contemplate it for even a minute, and then tell me if you think I was exaggerating.

Thousands of cultures, yes. Millions? No, that is a blatant exaggeration, unless you suggest that we count differences on a very small level to completely differentiate cultures. In any case, the broad sweeps of the paintbrush: the big cultures, the important nations, the general history, the overall feeling of a world is, in fact, replicable, and with not nearly as much effort as you make out to be. Certainly, the smaller details will escape you, but 1) those never come into play in NESes anyway, NESing being of too broad a scope, and 2) those aren't even that influential to history. Yes, lay of the land in general is important, and cultures, linguistics, and history is important, but it's not necessary to know it down to the minutest detail; that's what stories in NESes are for.

I'm aware you are fond of extremely detailed orders, but for the life of me, I cannot understand why. Trying to make an exact simulation, even of Earth, is impossible. You don't know the exact specifications of every square mile of Earth through thousands of years of the past. You can certainly extrapolate, but not down to the detail you suggest.

However, the more important movements in history, you can know, and most of us do. The knowledge is not so vast that it escapes us; we do know our backdrop for an Earth game, and it's not so hard to imagine a different backdrop being created. Simply put, the Earth is surprisingly small for its size. p)

This is the basic dissagreement. If you find that you can enjoy a NES just as much even though it is not the real world and you are not shaping what is truly a new history of the world, then G-d bless. For me, there is simply no replacement for a true fresh start in the fullness of the experience.

No, what I enjoy is truly shaping the history of a new world--very distinct from the appeal of an earth fresh start. Earth fresh starts are a completely different experience than cradles: Earths seek to put an unfamiliar play on a familiar stage; cradles remove the stage, and all preconceptions and biases as well. If some information is lost, then so be it.

 

[Cannae]

When is somebody going to make a new nes?

 

[Luckymoose]

"Goofing off" is perhaps too weak a phrase Stretching from Northern Mexico to the Andes, they also possessed the great silver and gold mines in Peru that would have been used to fund all their wars for a century or two! Wouldn't it be terrible if say... a minor Asian power conquered Peru and then went on an expansion spree? Just terrible

I am Spain now so don't bet on it.

 

[Azale]

This simply places us, more superior Asian nations, on guard even more. Spain has lost it's opportunity to grab the world by the throat, now it is in for a catfight.

 

[alex994]

I am Spain now so don't bet on it.

Another problem is that the Aztecs have been learning Western European ways for almost two decades and will be ready for any attack

 

[Cuivienen]

What's the point of replicating it, however? I really doubt that Tolkien ever wanted to do that.

It's very interesting to speculate what an Earth that's otherwise the same but has utterly different geography from the real Earth would be like. (As in, different coastlines, mountain ranges, oceans, etc.)

 

[Israelite9191]

I am Spain now so don't bet on it.

And I am the Aztecs now, so hold your horses. Now, respond to my diplo!