While We Wait: Part 5

[das]

It's not just "a play", it's one of the greatest works of literature in this world

It was written less than fifty years ago. It might achieve eventual immortality, but right now not enough time has passed for it to attain any such elevated status.

Moreover, I don't even suggest slaves are the primary recipients of the work; it is instead minor nobility and such, educated people, who become sympathetic to slave's plights. If you're going to argue THOSE people don't read, then I'll have to disagree with you.

If that is what was implied then it is a different matter entirely. Though then it is less of a slave rebellion and more of a general uprising.

Ridiculously exaggerated, and also, what exactly do you think "the ways things are" is?

Slave rebellions generally occur when slaves are used in large quantities in agricultural works. Distribution of urban culture in such conditions has always been difficult. This is less a gap between Farou and Hu'ut and more between the cities and the countryside, as well as between the free men and the slaves.

Some silly play? Did you even read the update? I thought I made it clear that it was the preeminent work of literature in the world thus far, but evidently I was wrong.

Who's the judge? Again, less than 50 years have passed, so it is not a classic yet, and what is popular now might not be popular forever. The work will ofcourse be immortal in due time, that much has already been established, but right now it is a popular play, no more, no less (and it's quality is quite irrelevant).

Because spoken words never influence people or inspire them. Oh no, they never have.

Because Hu'ut slaves have no oral culture of their own and can only be elevated by the words and the ideas of the free, civilised Faroun. They are a passive, non-historical population that can only be fired up from the outside.

False. This really smacks of a Marxist-Leninist way of thinking about the world (which, coincidentally, is an outmoded way).

People do not merely take action out of "class consciousness". Culture defines how a person grows up, it defines what triggers them, how they see the world. If you don't think that might make a person more or less likely to do something, then that's really odd.

And all that, ofcourse, is bad by default.

Though technically my mention of Marxism-Leninism was obviously a joke, I must ask if you have even read any of those you attack here, because technically nobody has ever denied that culture does play a part (and class consciousness is more or less a cultural aspect, isn't it?). The only questions are how culture is formed and in what way does it influence things, as well as the extent to which it does so. And, ofcourse, what was earlier - the chicken or the egg?

Anyway, all of this quite by the byside, when has culture ever been the main and defining reason behind a slave revolt? Examples and proof, please.

If you want a wargame where culture plays no role, I'd not suggest my NES. It won't appeal to everyone. Some things outside of the political and socioeconomic world WILL play a part, and that includes culture.

Okay, now that was uncalled for. When did I ever say anything of the kind?

Smuggling in banned literature to a nation has proven to be just about the easiest thing throughout history.

When it is available in great enough quantity, sure.

 

[Angst]

Spoiler :

The update may lie to you. As can the map, and sometimes even the stats. I don't intend to give players the verbatim truth. Even in OOC discussions.



It's not just "a play", it's one of the greatest works of literature in this world, written by an ever-quotable playwright. Moreover, I don't even suggest slaves are the primary recipients of the work; it is instead minor nobility and such, educated people, who become sympathetic to slave's plights. If you're going to argue THOSE people don't read, then I'll have to disagree with you.



Yes, they do. See below.



Exactly, especially as the Farou and Hu'ut have been next to each other for over a millennium.



Depending on what your definition of the Classical Period is, it may already be in it.



Sadly, I don't buy the "player as a spiritual leader of the people." Which means players in N3S III do not control every person in their nation, and which means that some will read foreign literature, especially if said foreign literature comes from a nation with such a dominant culture as the Farou. I don't care if you're hated enemies; so were the French Revolutionaries and British Conservatives -- they still read each other's literature.



I don't know why they'd do that, but I do know why they'd see it themselves.



This.

See, slaves don't even need to be able to speak Farou to be able to recite a few lines. Farou is one of the most inherently quotable languages in the world; it lends itself easily to rhyme, and it sounds so utterly alien to pure Hu'ut that the mere act of speaking it can take on a near-mystical aura. They probably speak the words to each other, only barely knowing what it means, utterly ignored by an overseer who thinks they're humming.



Ridiculously exaggerated, and also, what exactly do you think "the ways things are" is? If you think there's an impermeable cultural barrier between Hu'ut and Farou, then you are simply wrong. Both sides have gotten influenced (and thankfully Iggy's taking that waaaaay better than lj).



Some silly play? Did you even read the update? I thought I made it clear that it was the preeminent work of literature in the world thus far, but evidently I was wrong.



Since when has any one catalyst started something?



Yes.



Also true.



Because spoken words never influence people or inspire them. Oh no, they never have.



False. This really smacks of a Marxist-Leninist way of thinking about the world (which, coincidentally, is an outmoded way). People do not merely take action out of "class consciousness". Culture defines how a person grows up, it defines what triggers them, how they see the world. If you don't think that might make a person more or less likely to do something, then that's really odd.

If you want a wargame where culture plays no role, I'd not suggest my NES. It won't appeal to everyone. Some things outside of the political and socioeconomic world WILL play a part, and that includes culture.



What do you think Slave was about? It involves slaves who try to make their way to Farou, in the most simplistic summary. So I'd say that helps a lot with the scenario you're trying.



Was going to comment on this, but I'm keeping information on agricultural productivity classified.



Yeah. Not that it's even banned, given that no Hu'ut government has ordered Farou literature to be censored.



Some of the nobility are. And some of the slaves overhear them, or are directly told it by sympathetic people. Word spreads.



Pshaw. The printing press is the only semi-reasonable objection here. Smuggling in banned literature to a nation has proven to be just about the easiest thing throughout history.

It's all very nice, but I want to make sure you understand a number of things.

a) The things I am saying are not aimed to correct previous updates, influence the game to make me win an oh-so-glorious victory next turn, or anything else. It's simply to make people relate to the subject I've been annoyed of throughout the NES (Remember the PM discussion between us after update two?).

b) If I don't 'control every single person in my realm', I don't understand why Iggy appearantly does. 'Cause appearantly, from what you state, I can't decide that my people want slaves while Iggy may decide whether his people want them or not. And I know that his people is following tradition. It's just the same in Hu'ut.

c) It's not only nobles that use slaves. The main slave work force is owned by the peasants, while the slave guards are owned by the nobles. Neither the peasants nor the slave guards can read. You might understand why I mention this.

d) I am still not having theatrical culture in my nation. My national culture is based upon architecture. Remember Hiuttubuposolamanos?

 

[alex994]

He'll get here eventually.

OOC: I feel left out; most of the things of importance has already been said.

It amazes me how any culture which has lasted for over a a thousand years can stay so... constant. Not even China could succeed in that sphere...

 

[Dachs]

I am pretty sure the Dinosaur Comic for today is perfect for NESers.

 

[Luckymoose]

That is a good one, on a related note I went on a friend of mines boat near the area where that bomb was dropped using the fish finder to look for it.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

I've got a better idea: annex Canada. There's loads of uranium there, and they certainly don't want it. It being Canada.

Note to Canadian World Domination Command: They're on to us.

It's all very nice, but I want to make sure you understand a number of things.

a) The things I am saying are not aimed to correct previous updates, influence the game to make me win an oh-so-glorious victory next turn, or anything else. It's simply to make people relate to the subject I've been annoyed of throughout the NES (Remember the PM discussion between us after update two?).

b) If I don't 'control every single person in my realm', I don't understand why Iggy appearantly does. 'Cause appearantly, from what you state, I can't decide that my people want slaves while Iggy may decide whether his people want them or not. And I know that his people is following tradition. It's just the same in Hu'ut.

c) It's not only nobles that use slaves. The main slave work force is owned by the peasants, while the slave guards are owned by the nobles. Neither the peasants nor the slave guards can read. You might understand why I mention this.

d) I am still not having theatrical culture in my nation. My national culture is based upon architecture. Remember Hiuttubuposolamanos?

I don't control everyone in my population, but my culture has been built, from turn one, with a constant anti-slavery ideal in mind, much like yours has been built with a complete acceptance of the use of slaves.

Frankly, I doubt that a playwright's writings sparked minor slave revolts in the Hu'ut Empire. However, there might be an indirect connection between them- frankly, however, it's not a point large enough to argue about.

 

[Ninja Dude]

Well, today I got Call of Duty: World at War. Seems pretty fun. I'm focusing on beating single player for now.

Also, I'm suprised there hasn't been much fuss about Krato entering the war in End of Empires.

 

[human-slaughter]

Got Gears of War 2 If you liked the first at all GET IT!

 

[Dachs]

It took me awhile to notice this. Oops?

Looks more like a blatant naming scheme inconsistency to me.

Fine. When the Greeks conquer Qarthadast, I'll refer to it as Karkhedon, just for you, mmkay?

I don't think those Georgians were from Egypt in any case.

True, true.

In other news, I'm mostly annoyed by the failure of the CoD: World at War demo to DL correctly onto my comp for reasons known only to the idiocy that is Activision, and am temporarily boycotting the game in a stupid form of protest for no real reason.

 

[Luckymoose]

Got Gears of War 2 If you liked the first at all GET IT!

Severe lack of Berserkers ruined it.

 

[Masada]

If its quotable, and easily remembered, then it isn't hard to imagine it gaining traction between slaves who talk about it to each other. In the midst of a war for the survival of Hu'ut with the masters jumpy. It isn't hard to imagine that "normal" conditions are out for treatment and that "harsh" treatment is in, snake in the grass and all that. Throw in the slave rumor mill running at full tilt which is fired by rumors of liberation by the Farou, and tinged with a desire for revenge and you get the idea. The slaves would explode into violence if they could get away with it, and with alot of young men serving in the war it might not be as easy to quash slave revolts. Think of a historian looking back, and link the things likely to survive, Slave, the contemporary Hu'ut rebellions and the invasion of the Farou go figure. I also think NK is deliberately sometimes an unreliable narrator

 

[Sheep]

Those who know love their sci fi and alt. history literature will get a kick out of this one..

I was in my favourite bookstore (Pulp Fiction near the Central Train Station in Brisbane, Australia) and was buying the new John Birningham book 'Without Warning' when low and behold the guy standing next to me in the line happens to be John Birningham himself! I promtly got my copy of his new book signed and you so cant take the smile off my face tonight....

For those who dont know John Birningham he has also written books such as: 'He Died with a Felafel in His Hand', 'Leviathan', and the World War Trilogy ('Weapons of Choice','Designated Targets' and ' 'Final Impact')

To paraphrase the blurb on the back the new book 'Without Warning' is set in a world where in 2003 while the American army is readying its invasion of Iraq from Kuwait a wave on inexplicable energy slams into America, destroying it utterly...

Should be a very interesting read, and I do believe that one read once, this book wont be coming down off the mantlepiece, I would be more inclined just to buy another copy so I can keep the signed copy pristine!

Dont tell my wife this, but this almost rivals the day my first son was born

 

[Angst]

I don't control everyone in my population, but my culture has been built, from turn one, with a constant anti-slavery ideal in mind, much like yours has been built with a complete acceptance of the use of slaves.

Frankly, I doubt that a playwright's writings sparked minor slave revolts in the Hu'ut Empire. However, there might be an indirect connection between them- frankly, however, it's not a point large enough to argue about.

When its debatable, it's a point large enough to argue about. I personally just like discussing. The people I know in RL are really dumb.

The problem is that during the first couple of turns, Hu'ut culture was way ahead of Farou. Farou reached Strong in turn 3 or such. Did any Faroun man want to have slaves like in the neighbour Hu'ut empire, helping him survive because they helped him produce food at the farm? No. Then the Farou along the level of the Hu'ut culture for some turns before becoming stronger than them. Did any Hu'ut man then want to release his slaves so that he had it more difficult to feed himself? Well, appearantly.

 

[flyingchicken]

Adrian Veidt has the most horrible password and password feedback system ever.

---

Also: what is it with these guys? All that brown and black and gray, it is hurting my eyes!

---

This is awesome (Simulationist military thing), and awesome is an awesome word you know I use only sparingly! You serious guys should seriously contribute to it while I use it to practice OOP in Java.

 

[North King]

It was written less than fifty years ago. It might achieve eventual immortality, but right now not enough time has passed for it to attain any such elevated status.

Who's the judge? Again, less than 50 years have passed, so it is not a classic yet, and what is popular now might not be popular forever. The work will ofcourse be immortal in due time, that much has already been established, but right now it is a popular play, no more, no less (and it's quality is quite irrelevant).

Do you only read old books? It might be contemporary; that doesn't impact its popularity. It's quality is important, because higher quality works have more easily remember quotes.

If that is what was implied then it is a different matter entirely. Though then it is less of a slave rebellion and more of a general uprising.

Or cultural backlash; in any case, it does impact slave revolts.

Slave rebellions generally occur when slaves are used in large quantities in agricultural works. Distribution of urban culture in such conditions has always been difficult. This is less a gap between Farou and Hu'ut and more between the cities and the countryside, as well as between the free men and the slaves.

Slave rebellions generally occur when there are slaves. However, men don't just up and rebel, and some things can inspire them, even just the barely whispered word of freedom, which is exactly what Slave was.

Because Hu'ut slaves have no oral culture of their own and can only be elevated by the words and the ideas of the free, civilised Faroun. They are a passive, non-historical population that can only be fired up from the outside.

Apparently they only have an oral culture, because they can't read.

Though technically my mention of Marxism-Leninism was obviously a joke, I must ask if you have even read any of those you attack here, because technically nobody has ever denied that culture does play a part (and class consciousness is more or less a cultural aspect, isn't it?).

Sorry, but "Culture is never the reason behind slave revolts" led me in that direction.

The only questions are how culture is formed and in what way does it influence things, as well as the extent to which it does so. And, ofcourse, what was earlier - the chicken or the egg?

Yes, and we appear to disagree on that.

Anyway, all of this quite by the byside, when has culture ever been the main and defining reason behind a slave revolt? Examples and proof, please.

When has culture ever been the overt reason for doing anything? Culture is an undercurrent that teaches us to react in certain ways to certain situations; it doesn't necessarily create those situations.

Okay, now that was uncalled for. When did I ever say anything of the kind?

It was quite uncalled for. I'm a bit exasperated, please forgive me.

When it is available in great enough quantity, sure.

Even in low quantities... customs barriers are not very potent in these days.

It's all very nice, but I want to make sure you understand a number of things.

a) The things I am saying are not aimed to correct previous updates, influence the game to make me win an oh-so-glorious victory next turn, or anything else. It's simply to make people relate to the subject I've been annoyed of throughout the NES (Remember the PM discussion between us after update two?).

I'm aware of this. I don't think you're metagaming, don't worry about that.

b) If I don't 'control every single person in my realm', I don't understand why Iggy appearantly does. 'Cause appearantly, from what you state, I can't decide that my people want slaves while Iggy may decide whether his people want them or not. And I know that his people is following tradition. It's just the same in Hu'ut.

I admit I might be somewhat biased towards modernity in thinking that freemen are less likely to become slaveholders than slaveholders freemen. It probably should go both ways, and other aspects of your culture certainly are.

Thing is, though, it's pretty definitive that in a slave system you by definition have an underclass who want the system to be broken down. That's not necessarily so in a free system.

c) It's not only nobles that use slaves. The main slave work force is owned by the peasants, while the slave guards are owned by the nobles. Neither the peasants nor the slave guards can read. You might understand why I mention this.

i) I don't think peasants count as peasants if they own slaves.
ii) They can absorb information through different media. I don't claim they're all literate.

d) I am still not having theatrical culture in my nation. My national culture is based upon architecture. Remember Hiuttubuposolamanos?

One thing doesn't a culture make. Your people will read from time to time; staring at buildings (while I find it fascinating and thought of taking an architecture class or three) will never be the entirety of culture.

And it's kind of irrelevant what you mandate, given that there were four or so updates where you weren't here. Even if we accept that players can outlaw cultural changes (which I don't, because that's as silly as players declaring they don't take casualties in war), there was an NPC Hu'ut which wouldn't have been as xenophobic.

I know you made the culture and don't want to see it torn down. I'd say it hasn't been torn down, and that almost all of it is still recognizably Hu'ut as you made it, but some people don't like slavery. Is that acceptable?

 

[North King]

Those who know love their sci fi and alt. history literature will get a kick out of this one..

I was in my favourite bookstore (Pulp Fiction near the Central Train Station in Brisbane, Australia) and was buying the new John Birningham book 'Without Warning' when low and behold the guy standing next to me in the line happens to be John Birningham himself! I promtly got my copy of his new book signed and you so cant take the smile off my face tonight....

For those who dont know John Birningham he has also written books such as: 'He Died with a Felafel in His Hand', 'Leviathan', and the World War Trilogy ('Weapons of Choice','Designated Targets' and ' 'Final Impact')

To paraphrase the blurb on the back the new book 'Without Warning' is set in a world where in 2003 while the American army is readying its invasion of Iraq from Kuwait a wave on inexplicable energy slams into America, destroying it utterly...

Should be a very interesting read, and I do believe that one read once, this book wont be coming down off the mantlepiece, I would be more inclined just to buy another copy so I can keep the signed copy pristine!

Dont tell my wife this, but this almost rivals the day my first son was born

Somehow it's vaguely disturbing that a book where about 3/4ths of this forum are wiped out barely after their birth is what makes your day.

 

[Angst]

I admit I might be somewhat biased towards modernity in thinking that freemen are less likely to become slaveholders than slaveholders freemen. It probably should go both ways, and other aspects of your culture certainly are.

I'm satisfied.

i) I don't think peasants count as peasants if they own slaves.
ii) They can absorb information through different media. I don't claim they're all literate.

i) I know that you wrote that to jokingly bug me, but I don't know what they should be called. Well, read my background culture on page #early, I don't think the system has changed that much.
ii) ok.

I know you made the culture and don't want to see it torn down. I'd say it hasn't been torn down, and that almost all of it is still recognizably Hu'ut as you made it, but some people don't like slavery. Is that acceptable?

I think we have reached a conclusion, at least the two of us. I am not completely following the discussion between you and das, because you guys are generally smarter than me, so there's a chance I might reply if you continue.

 

[Dachs]

Adrian Veidt has the most horrible password and password feedback system ever.

That's not quite the correct response there. Do you wish to add a rider?

 

[Sheep]

Somehow it's vaguely disturbing that a book where about 3/4ths of this forum are wiped out barely after their birth is what makes your day.

It wasnt the book that made my day, it was the fact that I met the authour, John Birningham and got him to sign the book in question.

Besides its more like 4/5ths of the forum, and although it would be the end of nesing, I am sure I would live, so its all good... Everyone can rest assured that Sheep would survive!

 

[Dachs]

NK, have you heard about the college quizbowl fantasy league? Apparently I've been drafted.