While We Wait: The Next Generation

[North King]

I think you are rather overestimating the rigidity of oceanic plates - consider that the tethys was crushed in rather quickly. As long as you're mainly shifting those in and out and the grand cratons from the Jurassic are retained in some form you have a huge number of options. Plus it was 160 million years between the Pangean break up and the modern day, plenty of time for new rifting, twisting and change.

I think you're overestimating the amount of leeway that you have in this. Continental plates aren't completely rigid, but they certainly are nowhere near fluid, and the amount of fiddling that you'd have to do to make the effort of creating unknown continents worth it would rather go past the point of believability.

Moreover, even if you assume you can do whatever to the plates, this doesn't give you a reasonable way to make the exact same societies evolve...

 

[Thlayli]

As Iggy mentioned with his timely bump, DaftNES can, will, and must be restarted.

For the good of the NESing populace, Daft, it is your duty.

 

[das]

Re: freedom and rules:

Well, that's the thing. Rules don't usually limit player freedom all that much. It's all up to the moderator himself, and speaking from historical experience oppression actually works way better when there are no annoying rules; rules are for the legal authorities and other such pansies; REAL tyrants don't need no stinkin' rules and rule through terror and charisma alone!

True Story NESes are equally oriented towards both the tyrannical and the anarchic extremes, it's just that it usually ends up going to the latter and failing without a strong hand to enforce the continuity and the immersion.

My point still stands; also,

Refer to above. I don't see the trade-off complexity as being a pure drain on freedom if anything it can sharpen it and expand it in other directions while it recedes on others.

Seconded, but replace "freedom" with "interactivity" and/or "player creativity potential".

If "freedom" is defined as the ability to do stuff, and measured by the diversity of the stuff you could do, then a typical Simulationist NES with lots of various options and details would definitely be much more "free" than, say, Superpowers NES, and indeed other Arcade NESes where, even if you could do whatever you want, a lot is simply not going to have much of an effect. A Story NES, meanwhile, is defined primarily not by its freedom but by its inherent versatility, inasmuch as it can lean to a Simulationist extreme (for the sake of immersion, which, ofcourse, will come at the price of freedom) or the opposite (for the sake of freedom which, however, might come at the price of immersion).

 

[Dreadnought]

Dr.NES has been updated. Good luck....you're gonna need it.

 

[Disenfrancised]

I think you're overestimating the amount of leeway that you have in this. Continental plates aren't completely rigid, but they certainly are nowhere near fluid, and the amount of fiddling that you'd have to do to make the effort of creating unknown continents worth it would rather go past the point of believability.

Pluh, oceanic plates are quite fluid - just look at all the spreading and fracture zones on the Pacific, and thus you can edit them so that both the Old World and your alternative plates can co-exist.

Moreover, even if you assume you can do whatever to the plates, this doesn't give you a reasonable way to make the exact same societies evolve...

That's true, but you can have similar local environmental conditions, and just say that development took a very similar path. Or you could say the players are creating some de novo societies that just happen to very similar to a OTL new world society (like thats never happened in NESes before).

 

[Vertinari118]

Your not making it easy for us Dread. It was sneaky trying to channel us into the ravine to get massacred like that. Sadly I am on the ball today. Or did you just simply forget to block the eastern exit.

 

[North King]

Pluh, oceanic plates are quite fluid - just look at all the spreading and fracture zones on the Pacific, and thus you can edit them so that both the Old World and your alternative plates can co-exist.

I was actually thinking more about the continents. I do understand about the oceanic plates, believe it or not.

That's true, but you can have similar local environmental conditions, and just say that development took a very similar path. Or you could say the players are creating some de novo societies that just happen to very similar to a OTL new world society (like thats never happened in NESes before).

Which seems, again, to be underemphasizing the complexity and development of Native societies.

No one suggests that the Europeans could evolve in exactly the same way when on a different geographic map -- the little details are important. If the Netherlands didn't exist -- a minuscule difference in sea level -- we'd have an entire culture essentially gone. If a lagoon on the Adriatic was different -- no Venice. If Gallipoli wasn't there, Byzantium wouldn't have been nearly as defensible -- would the Arabs have taken it? You get my point, I think.

Meanwhile, I can give plenty of examples from the American side of the water. Suppose Canteen Creek was a little bigger naturally, and more water flowed through it. No disastrous canal-building project that led to the flooding that destroyed Cahokia, and the largest city north of the Rio Grande remains. Suppose the rivers of the Central Yucutan didn't converge in the same way, and the trade routes weren't as favorable -- no Tikal, no Mayan Hundred Years War, no collapse. Suppose the mountains formed a little differently in the Zapotec region, and there was no Monte Alban, no centralized Zapotec society. All tiny geographic differences that could have had massive impacts.

But for some reason, Native societies aren't as easily influenced by geography in people's minds. If you'll allow me to speculate a little, I think it's the latent suspicion that these Stone Age civilizations don't merit a second glance, that they are inherently less complex, that is causing this. Somehow, Bird is able to reduce the entirety of the Americas to a place for European colonies, nothing more, nothing less. It only has worth in how quick and entertaining the exploration and colonization is. This, in my mind, is a false supposition, and rather insulting towards Native civilizations.

 

[Abaddon]

Well let them be insulted, and we continue to exploit the unknown. All pretty IC if you ask me!

 

[North King]

Well let them be insulted, and we continue to exploit the unknown. All pretty IC if you ask me!

Simultaneously racist, obtuse, and completely oblivious to the point I was making. Classy. This kind of comment is exactly what makes me want to leave this forum in disgust.

 

[Abaddon]

I understand exactly what you meant. Next time i'll include a smiley so you can tell I am joking.. if that wasn't obvious enough from my post.

Just take a deep breath, and remeber this is a game to most of us. Of course Geography is ifinitly important in the development of civilizations. However, in a Colonisation NES.. the geography didn't matter to the Europeans, neither did the people inhabiting it. Because of that Beej can create a new world for us to explore.. an thus make us play much more IC.

 

[bombshoo]

The way I see it, Birdnes is a game that is Western-centric and there is nothing wrong with that in itself; it is for fun, not educational purposes. Yeah the Native Americans are not being portrayed accurately, but the game isn't about them as much as it is about exploring and colonizing the unknown. If someone playing the NES actually thinks that it is at all realistic, they are an idiot. I just don't understand this idea of thinking that there is some responsibility (for lack of a better word coming to mind) to portray the games here as close to the real world as possible.

 

[Azale]

BJ made the decision for the random continents to allow for a more genuine colonization-resistance experience, so the rich spots can't be unrealistically staked out. Stop trying to construe it as something else, it's insulting to your level of intelligence and insulting to BirdJaguar.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Meanwhile, I can give plenty of examples from the American side of the water. Suppose Canteen Creek was a little bigger naturally, and more water flowed through it. No disastrous canal-building project that led to the flooding that destroyed Cahokia, and the largest city north of the Rio Grande remains. Suppose the rivers of the Central Yucutan didn't converge in the same way, and the trade routes weren't as favorable -- no Tikal, no Mayan Hundred Years War, no collapse. Suppose the mountains formed a little differently in the Zapotec region, and there was no Monte Alban, no centralized Zapotec society. All tiny geographic differences that could have had massive impacts.

But for some reason, Native societies aren't as easily influenced by geography in people's minds. If you'll allow me to speculate a little, I think it's the latent suspicion that these Stone Age civilizations don't merit a second glance, that they are inherently less complex, that is causing this. Somehow, Bird is able to reduce the entirety of the Americas to a place for European colonies, nothing more, nothing less. It only has worth in how quick and entertaining the exploration and colonization is. This, in my mind, is a false supposition, and rather insulting towards Native civilizations.

That is a pretty interesting statement given that you haven't seen the map or the stats or know how the underlying tech tree advances. If you want to complain about something, wait until the stats are posted.

Sure, I'm making a lot of assumptions about the native civilizations, but I'm making just as many about the rest of the world too. I've taken lots of liberties with every nation. The whole of civilization's progress has been dumbed down to a level where a game can be played that is fairly simple and hopefully fun. My goal has been to create a platform for a game that allows players to lead nations in a time of great change in the world. Mynew map of the unknown world is not designed to be an insult to native cultures, but to represent the unknown nature of the world. In 1490 no one knew what the world actually looked like, not even the Inka and Aztecs. The only way to recreate that uncertainty is to make the map anew and let everyone figure it out as time passes.

The native civs are not as advanced as Europe or Asia, but depending upon how contact is made and over what time period, there is no reason for history to repeart itself exactly. If we stick to history, then the native civs are doomed anyway by disease and we might as well start with an empty America. The map will make no difference.

First and foremost this is a game.

 

[North King]

I understand exactly what you meant. Next time i'll include a smiley so you can tell I am joking.. if that wasn't obvious enough from my post.

Just take a deep breath, and remeber this is a game to most of us. Of course Geography is ifinitly important in the development of civilizations. However, in a Colonisation NES.. the geography didn't matter to the Europeans, neither did the people inhabiting it. Because of that Beej can create a new world for us to explore.. an thus make us play much more IC.

Obviously, Abaddon, you STILL didn't get what I said, so please stop trying to claim that you did.

My whole point was that people were belittling the Native civilizations in favor of the Europeans, which is what you just did, again. I don't give a crap if the Europeans didn't care about the continents they were inhabiting, because the world is not composed only of Europeans, not even in 1492. They are not the be-all and end-all of gaming, nor are they even the most dynamic civilization in a colonization game.

The way I see it, Birdnes is a game that is Western-centric and there is nothing wrong with that in itself; it is for fun, not educational purposes. Yeah the Native Americans are not being portrayed accurately, but the game isn't about them as much as it is about exploring and colonizing the unknown. If someone playing the NES actually thinks that it is at all realistic, they are an idiot. I just don't understand this idea of thinking that there is some responsibility (for lack of a better word coming to mind) to portray the games here as close to the real world as possible.

Because European colonization wasn't influenced by the societies present in the Americas at all. Yes. While we're at it, why not simply paste Europe onto a random map, because that retains the only part of the world that matters, and make the game more fun because you can explore more.

BJ made the decision for the random continents to allow for a more genuine colonization-resistance experience, so the rich spots can't be unrealistically staked out. Stop trying to construe it as something else, it's insulting to your level of intelligence and insulting to BirdJaguar.

Jesus, people. Why is it so hard to understand that I realize that Bird made the decision for the sake of colonization gameplay. That's exactly what I object to.

That is a pretty interesting statement given that you haven't seen the map or the stats or know how the underlying tech tree advances. If you want to complain about something, wait until the stats are posted.

Wait until you have it all developed and are even more calcified against objections, correct? Yeah, that's a prudent way of going about things, if I didn't actually care about the objections I'm making.

I'm not posting this to educate you about Native America. If I wanted to do that, I'd simply tell you guys to read 1491 by Charles Mann, because he does a much better job than I ever could. I'm posting this because I saw what could have been a magnificent game completely ruined [from my point of view, I realize that others do not share this view].

Sure, I'm making a lot of assumptions about the native civilizations, but I'm making just as many about the rest of the world too.

Please don't give me that passive-aggressive nonsense. It's wrong, you know it, I know it. Nowhere else are you changing the geography, nowhere else are you treating the civilizations like they essentially are nothing.

The whole of civilization's progress has been dumbed down to a level where a game can be played that is fairly simple and hopefully fun. My goal has been to create a platform for a game that allows players to lead nations in a time of great change in the world.

This is not even a defense of your game against my objections. I'm not asking you to make it more complex in any way, shape, or form. I'm asking you to use a realistic map. I don't see how that's going to massively complexify the game.

My new map of the unknown world is not designed to be an insult to native cultures, but to represent the unknown nature of the world. In 1490 no one knew what the world actually looked like, not even the Inka and Aztecs. The only way to recreate that uncertainty is to make the map anew and let everyone figure it out as time passes.

...The Aztecs and Inka didn't have their own maps, didn't know what their realms looked like? Heh.

If we stick to history, then the native civs are doomed anyway by disease and we might as well start with an empty America.

Please tell me you did not just say that, or that you were joking. That displays such a staggering ignorance of the influence of Native societies on colonial America that I... really can't even fathom it.

I'm sorry if that comes across as an insult, because I can't help it. I really have no idea how to respond to that.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Because European colonization wasn't influenced by the societies present in the Americas at all. Yes. While we're at it, why not simply paste Europe onto a random map, because that retains the only part of the world that matters, and make the game more fun because you can explore more.

Jesus, people. Why is it so hard to understand that I realize that Bird made the decision for the sake of colonization gameplay. That's exactly what I object to.

No you are wrong. I made the map decision for the sake of exploration game play. There is a huge difference.

Wait until you have it all developed and are even more calcified against objections, correct? Yeah, that's a prudent way of going about things, if I didn't actually care about the objections I'm making.

Of all the mods here I am probalby the most open to pre game developemnt ideas and discussion from anyone who can type. And I have incorporated many of those outside ideas into this game. I noted your objection when you first posted it months ago. But if I recall correctly, your never elaborated on that objection or offered any suggestions beyond "keep a OTL map".

...The Aztecs and Inka didn't have their own maps, didn't know what their realms looked like? Heh.

Huh? Of course they will have maps of their regions, I've even said so. I have previously provided special maps for players.

 

[Dreadnought]

North_King, with all due respect, we have all witnessed your opinions and, quite frankly, you are now beating a dead horse. If you don't like the concept, don't play. There is a huge thread of very anxious people waiting to play.

If you don't want to play, be quiet and don't play. Don't drag the world down because you don't understand the concept of a game vs. historical perfection.

EDIT: changed the last two words so its more clear.

 

[Crezth]

North_King, with all due respect, we have all witnessed your opinions and, quite frankly, you are now beating a dead horse. If you don't like the concept, don't play. There is a huge thread of very anxious people waiting to play.

If you don't want to play, be quiet and don't play. Don't drag the world down because you don't understand the concept of a game vs. real life.

Uh, NESing and real life are one and the same.

 

[North King]

No you are wrong. I made the map decision for the sake of exploration game play. There is a huge difference.

Not especially. You're still subordinating everyone else to Europe. And as for exploration gameplay, how the hell does having a different America change anything? If you're a player, you still know there's an America across the ocean. Might as well go for it.

Of all the mods here I am probalby the most open to pre game developemnt ideas and discussion from anyone who can type. And I have incorporated many of those outside ideas into this game. I noted your objection when you first posted it months ago. But if I recall correctly, your never elaborated on that objection or offered any suggestions beyond "keep a OTL map".

Sorry, but you really haven't displayed any of this "openness" that you claim. Rather than take your word for it that you are one of the most open mods on this forum, I'd like to see you actually put that into action and listen to an honest suggestion for once. Sorry if I seem a little ornery, but all I've gotten back for my typing is passive-aggressive justifications for what you've already done. Never have you even hinted that you might be willing to take a different course, not even once, not even when I first raised the objection. That's happened with nearly a dozen of my comments on your rules, map, game concept, whatever, always they are shot down in the exact same passive-aggressive tone. That's why I didn't elaborate then, because it seemed and still seems utterly useless talking to you about your game; I only elaborated now because someone pressed me about it. I'd much rather a mod tells me straight up that they weren't going to consider something at all rather than giving me a lot of unrelated text about "The whole of civilization's progress has been dumbed down to a level where a game can be played that is fairly simple and hopefully fun. My goal has been to create a platform for a game that allows players to lead nations in a time of great change in the world."

 

[Dachs]

North_King, with all due respect, we have all witnessed your opinions and, quite frankly, you are now beating a dead horse. If you don't like the concept, don't play. There is a huge thread of very anxious people waiting to play.

Argumentum ad populum: because a huge thread of very anxious people can't be wrong!

 

[Dreadnought]

Argumentum ad populum: because a huge thread of very anxious people can't be wrong!

In terms of whether the game should go on? You tell me: stop because one single outspoken critic has argued his case, or play because dozens wish for the game to commence?

Save your Argumentum ad populum for a more logical interjection.