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While We Wait: Writer's Block & Other Lame Excuses

Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by Nylan, Dec 24, 2011.

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  1. Thlayli

    Thlayli Le Pétit Prince

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    Yes, Israel has done a crappy job of protecting Palestinian human rights. But it has *tried*. Can you even imagine Hamas making a token effort to protect Israeli human rights? The only reason it hasn't enacted mass slaughters (on purpose) of Israeli kids is because Israel is competent. If you are interested in a Palestinian society that prides civil discourse, religious tolerance, and the other tenets of the UN Charter under which they are defended, you should be interested in the destruction of Hamas.

    But please, keep in mind that this series of wars began 70 years ago with all of Israel's Arab neighbors simultaneously defying a UN peace plan that the Jews accepted. Forgive them if they've viewed the UN with a grain of salt since then, since we all know it would have done nothing to save them from their fate of utter annihilation.
     
  2. Luckymoose

    Luckymoose The World is Mine

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    You can observe the same behavior in drunk frat guys when the club shuts down.
     
  3. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    Conflates various non-state actors with disparate motives and abilities in a confused and chaotic situation with reliable nation-state actors engaged through multilateral trade and diplomatic ties. Apples : Oranges.

    Right, because in your fanfic our white knight Christian Crusader presence inspires no resistance or resentment at all.

    The US cannot control the flow of food to a militant group from a single outlet.
    I therefore have absolute certainty that any arms and munitions provided to the FSA could not possibly wind up in the hands of the Islamic State or possibly be used against American interests.

    Protip buddy: everybody gets combat training and things like IED recognition exercises these days, thanks to people like you who took us into wars where everybody was at risk.

    "How dare people with field experience object to my pampered, cushy, North-Easterner perspectives? I bet those people don't own two homes! They know nothing of the stark oppression of the capitalist class! What is a tooth-to-tail ratio? Is that some plebian proletariat measure of height? Do not speak to me of how modern wars are waged, boy, I only respect the knight errant astride the battlefield! Only his lifesblood is worth its weight in gold!"

    I'm sure that Hamas deliberately sent those kids to UN schools, which the UN provided coordinates to the IDF for over 30 times saying "Do not bomb these places," to get them killed, yes. The UN is clearly in on it. Are we sure there isn't a line in the UN charter about destroying Israel? I mean, they denied the Zionists the right to take the whole thing way back when, and they're chastising Israel now, so they must be in cahoots with Hamas.

    While I do not agree with the perspective that inaction carries no consequences or culpability, the attribution of responsibility is much diminished, which is why legal and ethical concepts such as negligent homicide are separate and distinct from murder. For example, no one was arrested for failing to stop Kitty Genovese from being killed. In that same way, the US does not bear responsibility for killing people in Syria; the people in Syria do, even if the US could theoretically "stop" it (by killing people). Israel, however, does bear responsibility for killing the Palestinians, because it's directly dropping bombs on them.

    I know this is hard to understand for someone who sees the world in black and white, but it's not an unusual concept.

    Actually, it is, because the Republicans vote more or less as a bloc and they all voted to cut funding, as I articulated earlier. There is a difference between "some" and "all." Literally the entirety of your preferred party is in favor of crippling the military because it had to throw a hissy fit over Obamacare. No, don't bother finding the one guy who isn't, I don't care.

    You realize that Kosovo only came to an end once heavy ground forces were finally committed and the Serbs saw the writing on the wall that Russia wouldn't save them, and that the air war was ineffective in breaking their morale in the face of their entrenched air defenses, right? Air defenses similar to those the Syrians had. No, of course you didn't know that, because you don't actually research these things before saying them. There was also this bit where Wesley Clark almost started WWIII, but that's another story.

    Yeah, so may as well make it a reality because that'll make things so much better. I mean, by your logic, since the Middle East is populated by whitey-murdering killbots, why don't we just throw some holy water on some nukes and burn it all away in purifying fire? God will know his own!

    Actually you're really bad at this.
     
  4. Daftpanzer

    Daftpanzer canonically ambiguous

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  5. Thlayli

    Thlayli Le Pétit Prince

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  6. m.t.cicero

    m.t.cicero Good Kid

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    People in [crappy] situations make [crappy] decisions sometimes, yes, but then why should that lead to them being put in an even [crappier] situation?
     
  7. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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  8. Perfectionist

    Perfectionist Angel of Verdun

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    I can't believe I hadn't heard that quote until a couple of weeks ago.
     
  9. Thlayli

    Thlayli Le Pétit Prince

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    Do you oppose the Obama Administration's current policy of providing weapons to carefully vetted opposition groups? (Y/N) Would you be less upset if we used our ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY to give them anti-air systems that could be tracked and remotely deactivated? (Y/N)

    Wait, Afghanistan? Blame "people like me" (and people like you) for Iraq, but...

    You know, where I come from, people were taught manners and civility. I understand that that's not a language you necessarily speak, and in order to communicate with you I must use the language of insult and aggression. While I view this as a regrettable necessity, it is an important public lesson on how upbringing really does seem to instill character, or lack thereof.

    The same UN schools that Hamas was hiding rockets in? And when the UN authorities discovered them, they promptly...gave them back to Hamas. I'm not saying they're in cahoots, but on a local level they seem to be coordinating. Can you say with certainty that UN schools have not sheltered Hamas fighters, and would it not make them a legitimate target if they did?

    If that were Israel's stated intent, I would agree with you. However, despite your noted propensity for citation of sources, you ignore the numerous efforts (leaflets, knock on the door bombs, etc.) Israel has made to avoid civilian casualties in an area where the military and civilian infrastructure is intertwined and said casualties are practically inevitable as a result.

    The fact that Israel is trying not to kill Palestinian innocents (and making more than a token effort at it) would put the crime of Palestinian deaths more into the negligent homicide category, by your own admission.

    Given that nothing the House votes on will ever get passed, I think we need to have a little chat about symbolic political protest. I need not tell you that the only real cuts to the military were bipartisan, since nothing can pass the current Congress unless it has bipartisan support.

    Assad ain't as competent as the Serbian army. But hey man, if you wanna go all Syrian nationalist on me about Assad's GLORIOUS air defenses and how they're gonna shoot down all our B-2's, have at it.

    I don't feel the need to respond to this. I understand you have some pathological hate/fear of religion, but I haven't advocated the American government proselytizing Christianity in the Middle East. Nor have I advocated Christianity as a state religion or anything of the sort.

    You cheapen the debate (and yourself) by using these types of lowbrow attacks without substance.

    Demonize, deploy carefully curated facts, ignore opposition and anything that undermines your point, rinse, repeat. You don't even debate, you just yell.
     
  10. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    Protip: despite the conversation some weeks ago about the possibility of killswitches existing, killswitches are not actually a thing and the government is not going to remotely disable smartguns so it can put NRA members in FEMA deathcamps.

    Osama Bin Laden was a rich boy who fancied himself some crusades too. From where I sit, you and him have a lot in common other than the peculiarities of which faith you each happened to be born into.

    "I'm classy, therefore I will implicitly insult your parentage while talking about how civil I am."

    Yeah I'm sure that a bunch of foreign teachers really want to be handling rickety handmade weapons and/or call in Israeli kill teams because that will totally help them in their mission of interfacing with the local populace. It was also totally impossible for the Israelis to send in ground forces to check while they were conducting a ground invasion. Reasonable call to just blow the places up. Yup.

    It is, of course, completely unreasonable to suggest that Israel, which was famed in the 70s and 80s for using the Mossad to assassinate people, utilize their ground forces during a ground invasion to clear these places rather than dropping battlefield munitions onto an urban area. Then Israelis might die, and that's unacceptable. This is why the US carpet-bombed Fallujah in 2004, instead of sending in the USMC to... oh, wait, it's the opposite of what I was saying.

    They're trying so hard they only kill 4 good guys for every 1 bad guy they get! I'm no Owen Glyndwr but I understand a .2 batting average is pretty good in baseball!

    Sequestration is the law of the land and in effect probably until the end of the decade, my friend. You weren't paying a damn bit of attention to that earlier discussion, were you?

    Pack it up, everybody, Thlayli knows better than the Pentagon or Jane's or anybody, just direct all defense related questions to him, he's got this.

    What exactly do you think American soldiers operating as Christian crusaders means, Thlayli? What does that construction mean in your mind? Because apparently it means something very different than it does to everyone else who hears those words.

    Said the man who insulted my upbringing... You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, Prince Charming, either pick the high road or pick the low road but you're stuck on it all the way to Scotland.

    Uh huh. Uh huh. See right now you're doing the "appeal to the crowd" thing in the hopes someone will jump in our your side about how unreasonable I am. Hasn't worked so far. Might it yet?
     
  11. Thlayli

    Thlayli Le Pétit Prince

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  12. m.t.cicero

    m.t.cicero Good Kid

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  13. Luckymoose

    Luckymoose The World is Mine

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    Symphony D. wins. Praise him, for his name is Mercy!
     
  14. Grandkhan

    Grandkhan Telvanni Master Wizard

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    How dare he criticise Obama? Didn't you know that the President of the US is a god among all mortal reproach? Criticism of the Dragon President is punishable by immediate nuking and death.

    Benjamin Netanyahu criticised Obama once on national TV. This is why Israel is the eternal enemy of the United States. That is, of course, why the US refuses to cooperate with the entirety of Europe and New Zealand. All US citizens are above mortal reproach and the criticism of them is tantamount to war.

    Also the "Never second guess me." (Not "question", its almost like they're different words or something?) its almost like Netanyahu was saying "Oh look, we were right and I don't know why people don't listen to us when we tell them that negotiating with Hamas is doomed to fail because they don't play by any of the rules we play by and have absolutely no humanitarian concern for Palestinians or their safety in any way because their only weapon is intentionally putting civilians in the line of fire so that Israel gets negative publicity."

    Not "Never question me again." After all, only US world leaders are unquestionable.
     
  15. Perfectionist

    Perfectionist Angel of Verdun

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  16. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    How much is Hasbara paying you? Do you have to fill out a time sheet or something? Is there peer review? Are their rates competitive with Веб-бригады? I would be interested in supplementing my income by randomly defending Israel on the internet. Student loans are quite bothersome.
     
  17. Grandkhan

    Grandkhan Telvanni Master Wizard

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    To move back to the original point which was lost overnight, the fact that the US does not consider using a heavy construction vehicle as an instrument to cause terror for political aims a terrorist action, or abortion bombings or whatever, a terrorist action, somehow doesn't mean that they're not. You notice that American authorities are racist or whatever, but the problem is that they're not calling terrorist actions terrorist actions, not the other way around.

    In a conversation about how thlayli is supposedly a crazy american exceptionalist racist, you started by saying that racist US authorities are the metric by which everything should be measured.

    Also westerners should probably stop projecting their fetish for being oppressed onto entire ethnic groups. Every time an Israeli arab who's spent his entire life in Jerusalem, is gainfully employed, and happily dates Jewish women who say that it wasn't a political act and has nothing to do with treatment of Israeli arabs smokes crack its a political act, just like when anybody from Tibet eats fruit its a sign of resistance against their Chinese occupiers and every Chechnyan cries themselves to sleep each night at the destruction of their culture and the oppression of their people in nationalistic fervour.

    The west's fetish for being oppressed is dumb as all hell and ignores that these are actual people living these lives and trying to make a living and provide for their families, not tragic nationalist caricatures.

    Defending Israel? Must be a Jewish shill! #notanantisemite
     
  18. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    Actually it was an observation that by America's own standards it cannot go along with Israel's assertions that a bulldozer attack is terrorism, and if it does then it must (as it should) reevaluate what terrorism is. P.S. If hitting a bus with a bulldozer is terrorism pancaking 1,800 civilians supposedly over 3 dead teenagers and some crummy rockets is also terrorism.

    Except when they're being, you know, murdered.

    I'd rather have [AMERICAN FASCIST IMPERIALISM] than [ISRAELI FASCIST IMPERIALISM].

    If I'm not mistaken, you're Australian. If so, Israel doesn't jerk your country around as political cover for its Zionist achieving-YHWH's-fated-destiny-for-his-chosen-people shtick, buddy, but it does mine. I actually pay for this. I am not happy about paying for it. Tell you what, Israel can kill as many Palestinians as it likes in self-defense or whatever the moment it tells the US to cease supplying it with aide and arms for free or at anything less than fair market price. How's that for a deal? Does that sound reasonable to you?
     
  19. Luckymoose

    Luckymoose The World is Mine

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    Oh, so you too have adopted American media's stance on the issue? We're all antisemites because we don't support God's Chosen Apartheid™.
     
  20. ork75

    ork75 Prince

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    I would seriously research Australian policy on Israel before saying that again......
     
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