While We Wait: Writer's Block & Other Lame Excuses

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Humanity has never, let me repeat, never been okay with violence within communities. Exceptions to the rule come up for religious reasons or for economic gain, but it isn't the norm.

I love that you had to qualify "within communities" so that you could wave off the countless dead as a result of tribal clashes or war. That's killing too, by the way. Just because it nets you another city to spam axemen from doesn't make it less killing.

Humans are social creatures within the context of their groups, but you eliminate a group context and it's shocking how fast things degenerate. Maybe that's beside your point, but if you factor in all the murder that happens because one tribe didn't like the looks on the faces of the next tribe over, then you start to see that Symphony kind of has a point vis-a-vis the killing being a relatively normal part of the human experience.
 
Didn't realize we were in the 17th century, thanks Hobbes.
 
I love that you had to qualify "within communities" so that you could wave off the countless dead as a result of tribal clashes or war. That's killing too, by the way. Just because it nets you another city to spam axemen from doesn't make it less killing.

Humans are social creatures within the context of their groups, but you eliminate a group context and it's shocking how fast things degenerate. Maybe that's beside your point, but if you factor in all the murder that happens because one tribe didn't like the looks on the faces of the next tribe over, then you start to see that Symphony kind of has a point vis-a-vis the killing being a relatively normal part of the human experience.

A close study of humanity would inform you that killing is not the norm. Soldiers in modern scenarios missing on purpose is no different than it has been for thousands of years. Human beings do not want to kill other human beings. There is a reason people have to find justifications for it. Most religions and philosophies are founded around the idea that killing is bad. You can't ignore the vast majority of human civilization for some bullcrap modern view on killing. It is awful and it isn't academic.
 
Not to mention that the vast, vast majority of wars have ended in peace rather than genocide. But okay I guess we can talk "state of nature."
 
America is vanquished. :(

Also, I will be out of town until Saturday, with only internet access from my mobile
 
Thankfully we had no such problems against Neanderthals so we boned and clubbed them out of existence.
 
I'm guess we are leaving the rest of my previous point alone. Which is cool.

It's contextual.
Sure its contextual. In the context of the phrase that you used ("that the cause of death for around 50% of its individuals will be murder, and that actually there's nothing inherently wrong or evil about that") death of a half of the population from murder is both "wrong" and "evil" to me. We are not contemplating one murder as you do in the following example:
You hop in Doc Brown's DeLorean and go back to 1933 and smear Hitler over a wall with an AA-12. Is that wrong/evil or not? You walk outside and stab a baby in a stroller with a Bowie knife. Is that wrong/evil or not? In either case, you murdered someone. You can sit there and justify killing Hitler and few people would object, but if you claimed nobody had any way of knowing whether or not the baby would be the next Hitler, you probably wouldn't have a very strong defense. The two actions are morally equivalent, yet one is overwhelmingly acceptable and one overwhelmingly isn't. But they're really the same action, it's the justification and the effects—the context—that are different. And who knows, maybe the baby was the next Hitler.
We talked about half of the humans around us dying. I don't think its what we should strive for. The devil is in details, and I think we are not so much discussing the concept (while it needs to be discussed), but its scale and motivations.

Also, it is interesting how we discuss Hitler's murder as a viable option while with the time machine there are numerous options that are presented to us from taking him to another time to influencing him as a kid. I don't know about you, but these options are what I first thought of when I thought of Doc's DeLorean. I think it is to do with what we expect based on our personal experience.

Humanity has a record of and penchant for killing. Killing its own individuals, killing individuals of other highly intelligent species (elephants, dolphins, whales, corvids...), killing whole species outright. If killing is necessarily wrong and evil, then it's a pretty tough sell to say that Humanity isn't necessarily wrong and evil, which is a whole separate can of worms.
Yes and no. Killing for food is a natural part of life. Killing because your wife needs a fur coat to appear in public might be called excess. Here new (or well forgotten old) concepts of good and evil can be introduced - evil as "taking more than you need for survival".

So I doubt that the concept of killing is the defining factor in establishing what is "good" and what is "wrong" (I think I mentioned that before). It is killing for pleasure or for purely wrong reasons that we are discussing here, not to mention its scale (50% of population, really?). I think what I find wrong with what position, as I see it, can be illustrated a situation where a guy having been punched in the face chops the offenders head off thinking that it is a "justified response". Feels wrong. It is excessive, it is unnecessary even if it appeals to some mystical "human nature" that I do not think exists in this form.

It's a lot easier to just say it really depends, which is precisely what we've elected to do with most of the institutions we've set up for ourselves.
Yes, but we haven't let go of the capacity to judge the correspondence of "action vs necessity" and action vs its cost".

A lot of murder is justified murder, and the vast bulk of people don't find justified murder wrong at all. Does that make them wrong and evil by proxy for excusing a wrong and evil action?
Again as you said "it depends" on the causes and our "impression" (sorry, "opinion"). To that end I do not think that the death of 50% of people around me is justified by some "natural state of the human species". So when people make those decisions and judge them they operate within a framework of their own personal values. I do hope that their system has been both tried by the times and that it is as reasonable as the one that allows you to spare the life of your enemy in an armed conflict. I think that this ability may be the only thread that holds our species from falling into self-extinction.
 
That's just hilariously wrong on all levels. :lol:

I was surprised to see Symphony saying something like that hence my comments.

Which reminds me, how is the NESing community doing in terms of numbers? I got a sensation of impending doom in our forum N69.
 
A close study of humanity would inform you that killing is not the norm. Soldiers in modern scenarios missing on purpose is no different than it has been for thousands of years. Human beings do not want to kill other human beings.
The time frame in which Humans have had weapons capable of picking out an individual target and been averse to using that ability to kill has been about 100 years. As On Killing points out, people no longer generally choose to miss. Before that, with volley fire, you could reasonably contend you were just as likely to hit nothing at all. Unsurprisingly, most places that use execution by firing squad still use volley fire. It's an easy psychological way around the problem, but the problem has also been more or less solved.

Also, you don't really get to miss on purpose when it's a guy two feet in front of you and you've got to stab him with a spear or sword or else you die. For most of war's history, the choice has been fairly binary, because that's what the technology permitted: fight or die. Most people didn't choose to die. When put into a kill-or-be-killed situation, most people don't choose to die.

That's just hilariously wrong on all levels. :lol:
No, actually, it's not, unless you'd now like to take on basically every anthropological study of tribal warfare ever. My entire. goddamn. premise. is that even the "worst" societies above that level, including say, medieval Europe represented large-scale improvements in the field of "not dying to murder," and thus could be considered "better" on the metric of "I don't want to be murdered," and that romanticizing Humanity's "state in nature," is bogus because Humanity in nature is all about the murder. Literally every single step away from our default has been an improvement in terms of not being murdered. (Decline of life expectancy and quality of life otherwise until recently, sure.)

I'm guess we are leaving the rest of my previous point alone. Which is cool.
Responding to every single line will make this a book.

Sure its contextual. In the context of the phrase that you used ("that the cause of death for around 50% of its individuals will be murder, and that actually there's nothing inherently wrong or evil about that") death of a half of the population from murder is both "wrong" and "evil" to me.
You're reading it wrong, which you should've picked up from everything else I've said. "That" refers to murder, not the whole clause.

Yes and no. Killing for food is a natural part of life. Killing because your wife needs a fur coat to appear in public might be called excess. Here new (or well forgotten old) concepts of good and evil can be introduced - evil as "taking more than you need for survival".
A lot of the time we kill things simply because they annoy us or we've designated them as a "pest" with only a mildly causal connection to some function we deem important.

"Wolves eat livestock so even though this wolf is just kind of in the vague vicinity of my farm just prancing through the woods or whatever I'm going to blow it away."

"Crows eat seeds and I have a rifle so I'm just going to shoot that crow up there in that tree."

"Bugs don't belong in houses so I'm just going to smash this one that I happen to see."

"I saw Jaws and sharks are evil so I'm just going to kill this shark."

(50% of population, really?).
Though to be fair, we had this recently too, by the way, you might've heard of the Cold War.

I do hope that their system has been both tried by the times and that it is as reasonable as the one that allows you to spare the life of your enemy in an armed conflict. I think that this ability may be the only thread that holds our species from falling into self-extinction.
So far the primary thing that's kept us from extinction in light of the expansion of our capabilities hasn't been peace or love or communication, it's been the clear threat of the use of overwhelming force. Deterrence—the threat of murder—has historically been the primary way of preventing murder. And it works out fairly well provided one has a strong deterrence. When capabilities are homogeneous, that's when there are problems.

To that end I do not think that the death of 50% of people around me is justified by some "natural state of the human species".
Yet here you are on a forum about simulating/aping history and if you weren't so damn hung up on your misreading and focus on 50%, you'd probably agree that murder is easily justifiable and that Humans have been murdering one another for literally forever and will probably go on doing so. If that isn't a definition for a natural part of existence, let me ask, what is?
 
The time frame in which Humans have had weapons capable of picking out an individual target and been averse to using that ability to kill has been about 100 years. As On Killing points out, people no longer generally choose to miss. Before that, with volley fire, you could reasonably contend you were just as likely to hit nothing at all. Unsurprisingly, most places that use execution by firing squad still use volley fire. It's an easy psychological way around the problem, but the problem has also been more or less solved.

Also, you don't really get to miss on purpose when it's a guy two feet in front of you and you've got to stab him with a spear or sword or else you die. For most of war's history, the choice has been fairly binary, because that's what the technology permitted: fight or die. Most people didn't choose to die. When put into a kill-or-be-killed situation, most people don't choose to die.

I disagree. Human beings have always been far less successful at getting soldiers to commit to combat and "fight or die" than you lead on. Most battles before the modern period ended in people literally running away. Actual casualty rates are stupidly low. Humans beings would rather not fight at all. This is why modern armies put so much effort into dehumanizing the enemy. You have to be conditioned to murder, through training or knowledge you'll be killed by worse people behind you than the guys in front.

Most soldiers in the history of soldiers would run away the second they had the chance. Deaths in wars before the modern era were never primarily caused by murder. I'm really not sure where this whole psychohistorical field comes from, considering it isn't basing its arguments on fact or the millions of easily read documents from the past 2000 years.
 
I wouldn't disagree that Humans have a fear response and that in large forces they've usually been marshaled and led with the understanding that a failure to fight would have consequences just as bad if not worse than fighting and losing. I also wouldn't disagree that less-than-supremely-trained forces across all ages of warfare have a history of breaking and running rather than fighting to the death when it's evident they're going to lose.

I disagree. Human beings have always been far less successful at getting soldiers to commit to combat and "fight or die" than you lead on. Most battles before the modern period ended in people literally running away. Actual casualty rates are stupidly low.
Yes, I did in fact post a chart that demonstrates that death as a percentage of the total population by combat has been low for hundreds of years and has consistently dropped. I am familiar with casualty statistics and how they have dropped over time as battles have become more diffuse in the areas they occupy. And I have pointed at academic studies that show if you follow this trend all the way back to tribal societies, you get casualty numbers in the double digits.

The smaller the Human units, the more vicious the fighting, because one no longer has the luxury that a political assembly does of having somewhere to run away to, nor much of the bargaining power to secure a favorable outcome if vanquished. It's much easier for the other party to follow-up and press the advantage. Small-scale tribal warfare is much easier to make akin to total war than every other form of warfare up until actual total war.

Humans beings would rather not fight at all.
Anymore. And they're still easy to reprogram into doing so (and will often spontaneously self-reprogram). Considering that I have repeatedly stated that things have changed for the better with time and the increasing centralization of violence and distancing ourselves from tribal methods of operation, we're not actually disagreeing.

My statement was to the effect that Humans by nature are tribal and tribes murder the hell out of one another all time and that's who we are at base and who we were for about 180,000 years. "Civilization" is a modifier that sits on top of that, and it is good. There are two ways of disproving what I said:
  1. Demonstrate that tribal death rates were not nearly so high as has been conjectured by research on the subject (e.g., War Before Civilization).
  2. Demonstrate that tribes are or were not the default state of Humanity. (Good luck with that.)
Talking about medieval casualty statistics or whatever is just reaffirming my goddamn point.

e: Also, one would need to go test the resistance of members of various tribal societies toward the act of killing to get an actual natural baseline as to what the built-in Human resistance is. Human populations influenced by these overarching structures are inherently not natural. To my knowledge, nobody has done this.
 
Not really. Let's recap:

  1. People without oversight (e.g., authority, order, civilization, government, etc.) and without forms of ensuring compliance (e.g., reprisal, deterrence, law) do things that people with those things generally don't (e.g., murder).
  2. Those systems were generally built up precisely to curtail that sort of behavior.
  3. Those systems are therefore good and wanting to get rid of them is bad.
  4. That behavior is nonetheless natural and acknowledging it and channeling* it is superior to suppressing it and pretending it doesn't exist.
wow
so controversy
much radical
shock
symphay gon craycray

* Gee, I wonder why people like controlled or artificial forms of violence like most sports or video games. It's clearly because Humans fundamentally abhor violence!
 
Not really. Let's recap:

  1. People without oversight (e.g., authority, order, civilization, government, etc.) and without forms of ensuring compliance (e.g., reprisal, deterrence, law) do things that people with those things generally don't (e.g., murder).
  2. Those systems were generally built up precisely to curtail that sort of behavior.
  3. Those systems are therefore good and wanting to get rid of them is bad.
  4. That behavior is nonetheless natural and acknowledging it and channeling* it is superior to suppressing it and pretending it doesn't exist.
wow
so controversy
much radical
shock
symphay gon craycray

* Gee, I wonder why people like controlled or artificial forms of violence like most sports or video games. It's clearly because Humans fundamentally abhor violence!

Violence != killing; play fighting is a pretty natural phenomenon.

And such pure Hobbesian thinking seems to be just a little...archaic, at best.
 
Violence != killing; play fighting is a pretty natural phenomenon.
Killing each other is also a pretty natural phenomenon! It's happened more or less constantly for literally the entire existence of our species! Which is the whole gist of this argument! So what's your point?

And such pure Hobbesian thinking seems to be just a little...archaic, at best.
I laid out the two conditions to disprove the thesis. They're right there in black and white with numbers and everything. Pick one and get to work or step off.
 
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