White Flight Redux: Self Segregation out of Irrational Fear.

[Hygro]

Beyond the fact that having the single worst offender of cognitive dissonance in the entire forum trying to give lessons about it is pretty hilarious, you also manage to not even understand what you quote, because the ENTIRE POINT of what I was saying is that "not being at the extreme" is a very large segment of opinion that can't be reduced to a singularity.
So basically, you're ridiculing yourself twice in one post. I didn't expect any less from you !

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I already explained that being a "moderate" is kinda simply "not being an extremist". You can insist on redefining it so it sounds ugly and the extremists sounds heroic, but that's just trying to emotionally load the term in an attempt to emotionally manipulate the audience.[

Beyond the fact that having the single worst offender of cognitive dissonance in the entire forum trying to give lessons about it is pretty hilarious, you also manage to not even understand what you quote, because the ENTIRE POINT of what I was saying is that "not being at the extreme" is a very large segment of opinion that can't be reduced to a singularity.
So basically, you're ridiculing yourself twice in one post. I didn't expect any less from you !

---


I already explained that being a "moderate" is kinda simply "not being an extremist". You can insist on redefining it so it sounds ugly and the extremists sounds heroic, but that's just trying to emotionally load the term in an attempt to emotionally manipulate the audience.
Basically a strawman.

Even if it's a large segment of the population it's still defined as the center of whatever people are thinking at that given moment. If we take our understanding of what governs both crowd wisdom and mob madness, it means that being moderate is a safe heuristic to meta-know what's close enough to the truth, while succumbing occasionally to horrible, wrong, off course herd following.

Wouldn't the ideal be something that is good that, when by fortune and our hive mind, the people coalesce to, but by chance when humans get mass-deluded, seems extreme.

Here's an appeal: say CFC was the full population. Say you're right about everything generally. Your politics were center here (people times distance to center) during your hiatus say around 2006-7. If being in the band of moderation was the virtue, you would be unvirtuous not changing with the winds of this place. Instead you have roughly the same values you had in 2002 when I was first reading your posts. It would then suggest, in our imagined CFC only world that if your expressed values via your posts are virtuous, your virtue is separate your relative centrism. If relative centrism is the virtue you have lost your grace, or perhaps had in 2013 before the influx of the new young right wing.

 

[luiz]

I think warpus made a good point that is being (maybe wilfully) missed. Moderation is not a specific ideology, it's just that, moderation. During the French Revolution you could be a moderate republican, or a moderate monarchist. Either defended a different system, but they would probably agree that mass head-chopping is not the best means to achieve the desired result.

Moderation is indeed virtuous. Head-choppers have usually just caused misery, no matter how noble their cause seems.

 

[Akka]

Even if it's a large segment of the population it's still defined as the center of whatever people are thinking at that given moment.

I got a feeling of déjà vu here.

Oh yes, here it is :
=>

I already explained that being a "moderate" is kinda simply "not being an extremist". You can insist on redefining it so it sounds ugly and the extremists sounds heroic, but that's just trying to emotionally load the term in an attempt to emotionally manipulate the audience.
Basically a strawman.

 

[Hrothbern]

do you think it's a complete paradox that there could be circumstances in which using violence to achieve something could be good? what about a scenario in which the alternative is being killed?

let me give you an example of a moderate that had to use violence in order not to get killed and was the rest of his live, more than 50 years, torn because of that paradox.

An oncle of mine, a peaceful, cheerful, sympathic person, was during WW2, in occupied Netherlands forced to participate in the Arbeitseinsatz, forced labor in the factories of Germany.
He was deported to Schweinfurt, to the bearing factories of SKF (still there) producing essential bearings for the war industry. He sabotaged production lines by tweaking the very precise calibrations, got caught after a while and was deportedb to a concentration camp. Pretty soon, together with a mate, he found a way to escape, but a guard was suddenly in a place he should not be and having "no choice" they killed him. He got back to home and his fiancee, my aunt, and was the rest of the war hidden.

As a kid I knew ofc nothing of all that, he was just that sympatic oncle, a technical nerd, with always a bow tie, that made the family movies (he was working in the movie industry).
He spoke softly, he did not hate the Germans like my other oncles, who spoke in harsh terms..... he was a moderate person in every way.
And yet he was torn for more than 50 years because he had killed somebody and could not sleep from it.

 

[Senethro]

Thats a heavy story. Brave man.

 

[Hygro]

I got a feeling of déjà vu here.

Oh yes, here it is :
=>

We're going off a warpus-traitorfish conversation where warpus defines it in opposition of extremism and traitorfish explained the problem with that. You countered to traitorfish by saying moderate has a wide girth. I countered by saying that's categorically not addressing the issue, going off with your hunch (hint traitorfish doesn't play dumb when he writes long posts) and hoped a rewording helped.

We can continue off luiz's pivot, but either way there's no straw man. I'm not assigning you your view on what moderate is, but I am addressing that based on the warpus-traitorfish conversation what traitorfish means and how you responded, and if I'm lucky, why it's important we don't assign a permanent positive value to a dynamic spot based on proximity to a mean.

Fwiw warpus still has me on ignore for his getting triggered into imagining I took a position I never took.

 

[warpus]

do you think it's a complete paradox that there could be circumstances in which using violence to achieve something could be good?

No

what about a scenario in which the alternative is being killed?

Dude, if someone wants to kill you, fight back. Just because you're a moderate person doesn't mean you shouldn't try to prevent your own death. That actually doesn't sound very moderate to me. It sounds suicidal. Something an extremist might do

 

[Kyriakos]

No



Dude, if someone wants to kill you, fight back. Just because you're a moderate person doesn't mean you shouldn't try to prevent your own death. That actually doesn't sound very moderate to me. It sounds suicidal. Something an extremist might do

And i'd wager that the most likely reason why one being lethally attacked won't fight back would be due to fear (i can sympathize; i hope that in the - hopefully very unlikely- event i am under such threat, i won't be paralyzed with fear).

 

[miaasma]

Dude, if someone wants to kill you, fight back. Just because you're a moderate person doesn't mean you shouldn't try to prevent your own death. That actually doesn't sound very moderate to me. It sounds suicidal. Something an extremist might do

great, now extrapolate that to a larger scale and try to contextualize it within the current political/social atmosphere in the united states

then look at what a lot of "moderates" say in response to it

to be fair, i tend to relate moderates with centrists

 

[warpus]

great, now extrapolate that to a larger scale and try to contextualize it within the current political/social atmosphere in the united states

then look at what a lot of "moderates" say in response to it

Okay, let's do that then. You start, as I don't live in the U.S.

 

[miaasma]

Okay, let's do that then. You start, as I don't live in the U.S.

i also don't live in the US, and given that we are having this conversation, i'm sure you can use the wide variety of resources on the internet available to you for this

i'd suggest specifically looking at the rampant white supremacist/antisemitic behaviour that is currently getting a lot of coverage, some of which is available in this very thread

 

[Ryika]

i also don't live in the US

the rampant white supremacist/antisemitic behaviour that is currently getting a lot of coverage

Sounds like you haven't learned yet that the media acts as a giant amplifier of what is really going on. If you think there's "rampant white supremacist behavior" going on in America, then you're utterly deluded.

 

[Akka]

i also don't live in the US, and given that we are having this conversation, i'm sure you can use the wide variety of resources on the internet available to you for this

One of the main criticism made to the race-obsessed extremists here is precisely their US-centrism. It seems it's contagious, and proving the point : not only they project their own bubble over the world at large, but now the whole cultural debates seems to be centered on how it's supposed to happen in the US.
This overtaking of all thoughts on all societal concepts by a fringe US group is one of the most worrying trend I'm seeing in the Western world.

 

[Ferocitus]

Sounds like you haven't learned yet that the media acts as a giant amplifier of what is really going on. If you think there's "rampant white supremacist behavior" going on in America, then you're utterly deluded.

In Adelaide at a Hiroshima Day march in the early 1980's about 6 neo-nazis in
full "scout" uniforms jumped in front of the main banner to obscure it. There
were about 10,000 people at the march, but that tiny segment was the only
thing shown on all 4 commercial TV stations that evening.

I suspect that's very similar to what is happening in the US now.

 

[luiz]

In Adelaide at a Hiroshima Day march in the early 1980's about 6 neo-nazis in
full "scout" uniforms jumped in front of the main banner to obscure it. There
were about 10,000 people at the march, but that tiny segment was the only
thing shown on all 4 commercial TV stations that evening.

I suspect that's very similar to what is happening in the US now.

Yeah. I don't want to minimize how horrible that nazi march was, but we're talking of a few hundred people in a country with well over 300 million. The biggest white supremacist rally in decades had just that, a few hundred people. Compare that to other political rallies, or say gay pride parades, and we see how fringe and tiny it is.

 

[Ferocitus]

Yeah. I don't want to minimize how horrible that nazi march was, but we're talking of a few hundred people in a country with well over 300 million. The biggest white supremacist rally in decades had just that, a few hundred people. Compare that to other political rallies, or say gay pride parades, and we see how fringe and tiny it is.

I still maintain that they are mentally unwell and need treatment. I think their
numbers are probably lower than the rate of schizophrenia in the USA.

IIRC, the Adelaide contingent of about 6 neos targetted a Vietnamese restaurant
soon after that 80s march and were given such a hiding they never raised their
heads above the parapet again.
I'm surprised that neo-nazis in the UK, USA, and especially Russia, aren't given
the same treatment.

 

[warpus]

i also don't live in the US, and given that we are having this conversation, i'm sure you can use the wide variety of resources on the internet available to you for this

i'd suggest specifically looking at the rampant white supremacist/antisemitic behaviour that is currently getting a lot of coverage, some of which is available in this very thread

Okay, but none of what you're saying matters in terms of it being a coherent response to what you quoted that I wrote initially.

 

[miaasma]

Sounds like you haven't learned yet that the media acts as a giant amplifier of what is really going on. If you think there's "rampant white supremacist behavior" going on in America, then you're utterly deluded.

oh okay, thanks for setting me straight

In Adelaide at a Hiroshima Day march in the early 1980's about 6 neo-nazis in
full "scout" uniforms jumped in front of the main banner to obscure it. There
were about 10,000 people at the march, but that tiny segment was the only
thing shown on all 4 commercial TV stations that evening.

I suspect that's very similar to what is happening in the US now.

ah yes, of course. nevermind guys, no racism here

One of the main criticism made to the race-obsessed extremists here is precisely their US-centrism. It seems it's contagious, and proving the point : not only they project their own bubble over the world at large, but now the whole cultural debates seems to be centered on how it's supposed to happen in the US.
This overtaking of all thoughts on all societal concepts by a fringe US group is one of the most worrying trend I'm seeing in the Western world.

what a weird thing to post in a thread specifically about white supremacy in the US

Okay, but none of what you're saying matters in terms of it being a coherent response to what you quoted that I wrote initially.

i think this is my favourite response people throw out when i tell them i'm not going to do all of their research for them

 

[Akka]

what a weird thing to post in a thread specifically about white supremacy in the US

I'm pretty sure that in the span of 16 posts, the discussion went well beyond the title and touched on the whole concept of segregation even beyond the US.

 

[miaasma]

I'm pretty sure that in the span of 16 posts, the discussion went well beyond the title and touched on the whole concept of segregation even beyond the US.

none of my posts did