Who should own the date of 9/11?

[GoodGame]

This thread should be in the Tavern, because there is little to discuss. Clearly, there is no pwnage on calendar dates other than different religions, governments, NGOs have certain dates marked for various reasons. Clearly the progression of the Earth through it's elliptical orbit around the Sun is not owned by anyone individual any more than abstract numbers are owned. We could ask for a UN ruling on it, but that'd be pointless.

 

[Neomega]

So somehow media utilizes a completely different business model to all other successful enterprises which cater to the desires of the consumer?

Mass media companies cater to the shareholders first, aka the banks. Profit comes whether they discuss 9/11/1973 or Melanie Griffiths new dress. Question is, which one is damaging to the interests of the banks, and which one is beneficial to the interests of the banks.

 

[NovaKart]

The idea of comparing them is not offensive to this Chilean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMFmKg0k8cY

Indeed, I am positive EVERY chilean, who lost a loved one or loved ones to Pinochet, and who now knows the US was behind the coup, is quite outraged about what September 11th has come to mean in the world's memory, while their own September 11th hells have been quietly forgotten, and the villains of their September 11th died with honors, or are still walking free and respected today, like Nobel Peace prize winner Kissinger.

Yes, to these Chileans, watching the Americans cry about their 3000 dead and calling for the heads of the villains of their september 11th, all the while giving peace prizes to villains of the 1973 September 11th... ...to these Chileans, I don't think they are offended at all that some guy on the internet is drawing a comparison and asking why America owns September 11th, when America was partially responsible for a September 11th that killed and tortured even more people.

No, you might be offended, and others might be offended, but those are just the offense of reading words. That's not as offensive as those who watch the murderers of their sons and daughters prance around and call themselves the leaders of the free world.


I know, right? But that's not the way it is. America owns September 11th. I say it's time the United States reflect upon what we did to Chile.

Perhaps my mind can be changed, and say it should be shared, but for now, America owes Chile an apology 39 years overdue, and it owes chile the heads of the American agents involved in such a heinous crime. Too bad most of them are dead by now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._intervention_in_Chile#1973_coup

In her evaluation of United States foreign policy around the time of the coup in Chile, Jeane Kirkpatrick, later U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, highlighted her country's lack of overt aggressiveness in the developing world while events were transpiring in Chile. "In the last decade especially we have practiced remarkable forbearance everywhere." [Kirkpatrick, 1979] While this is the case for overt U.S. policy, severely constrained by the movement that had grown up in opposition to the Vietnam War, nonetheless, as discussed above, United States policy regarding aid (at the very least) helped lead to Allende's downfall, and the U.S. actively supported coup planning on some occasions, although possibly not that of the coup that actually took place. U.S. President Gerald Ford publicly admitted in 1974 that the CIA had covertly operated in Chile [38]

U.S. President Bill Clinton ordered the release of numerous documents relating to U.S. policy and actions toward Chile. [5] The documents produced by various U.S. agencies were opened to the public by the U.S. State Department in October 1999. The collection of 1,100 documents dealt with the years leading up to the military coup. One of these documents establishes that U.S. military aid to the Chilean armed forces was raised dramatically between the coming to power of Allende in 1970, when it amounted to US$800,000 annually, to US$10.9 million in 1972.

Regarding Pinochet's rise to power, the CIA concluded in a report issued in 2000 that:"The CIA actively supported the military junta after the overthrow of Allende but did not assist Pinochet to assume the Presidency." [39] However, the 2000 report also stated that: "The major CIA effort against Allende came earlier in 1970 in the failed attempt to block his election and accession to the Presidency. Nonetheless, the U.S. Administration's long-standing hostility to Allende and its past encouragement of a military coup against him were well known among Chilean coup plotters who eventually took activities of their own to oust him.[39]

A White House press release in November 2000 acknowledged that "actions approved by the U.S. government during this period aggravated political polarization and affected Chile's long tradition of democratic elections..." [40]

In a 2003 town hall with students, high school student James Doubek asked Secretary of State Colin Powell about the United States support for the coup, to which Powell replied that "it is not a part of American history that we're proud of.[41]

It seems like you don't really even know much about the 1973 coup or the subsequent US reactions to it. It's not quite as clear-cut as you've made it out to be and the US government has released documents relating to it and spoken about it publicly so the situation isn't really how you present it.

Another detail you may not be aware of, the US does not run the Nobel committee. Henry Kissinger is a pretty controversial figure and Richard Nixon is not at all admired in the US so the idea these guys are heroes is false.

Finding a youtube video of a random Chilean guy doesn't mean that you now speak for all of them. Even if you did, that doesn't make the victims of Sept. 11th in New York responsible for the events in Chile, for one thing the CIA was involved which means it was not something most US citizens were even aware of at the time.

Saying that Americans do not deserve a day of mourning because of an event almost all of them had nothing to do with is offensive.

 

[illram]

9/11 was a traumatic event for a huge country that is still fresh in the minds of almost every American who was old enough to witness and remember it. The fact that it happened in a large nation with a globe-spanning media presence that is very visible to the entire world means there is more "9/11" saturation than some may think is warranted since the vast majority of the world is obviously not American. There is also the fact that US power projection means that things that mightily affect and change the US vis a vis foreign policy will probably touch more of the world than, say, a coup in Chile.

It makes perfect sense that in the US, 9/11 means 9/11/2001. Elsewhere in the world, it might not. If you watch alot of English-speaking TV, you're bound to see a lot of America-themed news, so on 9/11 you will see a lot of memorials and tributes and discussion of what many Americans consider the most significant world event of our generation regardless of your political leanings. I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

 

[warpus]

9/11 was a traumatic event for a huge country that is still fresh in the minds of almost every American who was old enough to witness and remember it. The fact that it happened in a large nation with a globe-spanning media presence that is very visible to the entire world means there is more "9/11" saturation than some may think is warranted since the vast majority of the world is obviously not American. There is also the fact that US power projection means that things that mightily affect and change the US vis a vis foreign policy will probably touch more of the world than, say, a coup in Chile.

It makes perfect sense that in the US, 9/11 means 9/11/2001. Elsewhere in the world, it might not. If you watch alot of English-speaking TV, you're bound to see a lot of America-themed news, so on 9/11 you will see a lot of memorials and tributes and discussion of what many Americans consider the most significant world event of our generation regardless of your political leanings. I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

Yep.. but in the end nobody really can "own" a date, unless we're talking about the fruit.

And the U.S. does in many ways dominate the internet, but it is also a global phenomenon, so different symbols will mean different things to different people.

 

[JohannaK]

No, no, no. You're all wrong. 9/11 belongs to Catalonia. It has been our national day for a 100 years or so, and it is the anniversary of the fall of Barcelona to the Bourbons in 1714, ending with the federal-like system that let Catalonia, Aragon, Valencia and the Baleares have their own laws apart from Castille. Every single Catalan understands 9/11 as that.

Disclaimer: Nobody can own a date.

 

[illram]

Obviously no one can own a date, my point is certain dates carry more significance to certain people, and if America sees something as more significant than others, for better or worse the world will hear all about it.

Not to mention that a Brit will see 9/11 and think "November 9, who cares?"

 

[Bugfatty300]

Or Should it be Chilean victims of the Pinochet government, whose dictatorship overthrew the democratically elected Allende, (with the backing of the host country of the twin tower attacks, ironically) and then executed and "disappeared" up to 3,200 people, not to mention tens of thousands of political dissidents imprisoned and tortured?

Well he didn't do it all in one day.

So I hereby declare that Chile owns every single day of the year in which Pinochet was in power!

On the other hand I looked up the Wikipedia entry for 9/11 and actually it seems Ireland lost slightly more people than the Chileans in the siege of Siege of Drogheda on September 11, 1649.

Or wait was I just looked up and saw that 12,000 people died in the bombing of Darmstadt on September 11, 1944. So does this mean the Germans own 9/11?

Or the Turks who lost 20,000 lives attacking the city of Vienna on September 11?

Are we just counting civilian deaths here? Do we need a tie breaker?

 

[JohannaK]

Well he didn't do it all in one day.

So I hereby declare that Chile owns every single day of the year in which Pinochet was in power!

On the other hand I looked up the Wikipedia entry for 9/11 and actually it seems Ireland lost slightly more people than the Chileans in the siege of Siege of Drogheda on September 11, 1649.

Or wait was I just looked up and saw that 12,000 people died in the bombing of Darmstadt on September 11, 1944. So does this mean the Germans own 9/11?

Or the Turks who lost 20,000 lives attacking the city of Vienna on September 11?

Are we just counting civilian deaths here? Do we need a tie breaker?

YOU ARE FORGETTING 9/11/1714!!!!
Or as everyone except 'Muricans say, 11/9/1714.

 

[Bugfatty300]

YOU ARE FORGETTING 9/11/1714!!!!
Or as everyone except 'Muricans say, 11/9/1714.

Okay fine. If you really want it so bad then you can have 9/11.

Here it is in all it's 9/11ish glory. Enjoy.

Spoiler :

 

[JohannaK]

Dude, that's just soo...

Spoiler :

 

[Bugfatty300]

Well I think what I've learned from taking part in these 9/11 threads is that there's more than enough crying bald eagles to heal the wounds of all 9/11 victims. Not Just Americans and Chileans. I just hope my tasteful artwork can put the 9/11 (v.1714) issue to rest.

 

[warpus]

I wonder why the Polish eagle never cries. Maybe he just drinks heavily during times of national mourning instead.

 

[del62]

Wasnt 9/11 the aniversiry of when 300 bombers, bombed England, by Austrians (like Holy Kong) and Germans in 1940

Strangely from what I have read Sepember the 11th 1941 was used in the Austrian's regime's declaration of war on America

Spoiler :

Please note Holy Kong is a purely fictional character and bears no resemblance with any CFC Poster (thats for mods reading only)

Moderator Action: No trolling other members in the Chamber (not even veiled)
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[utgotye]

Why are people actually arguing about this? The OP would seem to have an agenda to push and as such the likelihood that you, I or anyone else will be able to have a reasonable conversation about this or any other anti-American thoughts he wishes to spiel. Just ignore him. There are way more important things to discuss before one would ever need to talk about this.

 

[jtb1127]

The whole thread is of no importance. People in Chile don't care about the WTC attack and people in the US don't care about the coup in Chile. In the US 9/11 means the deadliest terrorist attack ever. In Chile it might mean the end of democratic government for some time. There's no clash over who owns what. It's relative to where you are.

However, I doubt they call it the "9/11 Coup" in Chile. As far as as I know it's always been the "1973 Chilean coup d'état". But in the US, and mostly everywhere else, 9/11 = terrorist attack. And it's not just owned by the victims. It's also the day that US international prestige hit a major bump due to the events outlined in the OP.

 

[Perfection]

The family of John Ritter.

RIP

 

[Evie]

I'm dubious of the idea that the Chilean refer to it as the "1973 CHILEAN coup d'etat". That's what people in OTHER countries would call it...

 

[del62]

Oh Ghettoes where liquidated under the overall control of an Austrian on another 9/11, I guess this is more significant from a european perspective then a thin strip of South America

 

[Tahuti]

"offensive" is the overthrowing of a democratically elected government to install one who follows more in line with your "chicago school" of economics.

The Pinochet coup had nothing to do with economics, even though this historical falsification is quite endemic. The USA feared Allende would side with the Soviets and deposed him. Pinochet happened to enact policy recommendation from the Chicago School, but that's totally irrelevant and a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Similiarly, the USSR invaded Afghanistan because the USSR feared Afghanistan would align with the USA, and not because the USSR it wanted to introduce women's rights or atheism or something.