Who should own the means of violence?

[Berzerker]

You kinda missed my point. Let's try again. There's a shooter at the front of the store. You're hunkered down behind the meat counter, maybe along with your new friend and his steel security blanket. The cops out front are yelling "come out with your hands up." You gonna raise your hands and head for the front door? Do you think your new compadre is gonna drop his security blanket and do that?

No, the shooter is toward the front of the store. If we're at the rear we'd leave thru the back or surrender to cops entering from our side of the store... But until the cops show up we're morally obliged to help instead of running. When they show up we can disengage the shooter and let them handle it. Since we're in the back and the shooter is in front, they'll find him first. With open carry the cops will know multiple shooters could mean innocent armed citizens may be involved.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No, the shooter is toward the front of the store. If we're at the rear we'd leave thru the back or surrender to cops entering from our side of the store... But until the cops show up we're morally obliged to help instead of running. When they show up we can disengage the shooter and let them handle it. Since we're in the back and the shooter is in front, they'll find him first. With open carry the cops will know multiple shooters could mean innocent armed citizens may be involved.

Fair enough. I'd have long since bailed out the back door if there is one, myself, rather than waiting for the cops to suggest it. Open carry or not, anyone on a scene popping off rounds most certainly qualifies as a 'danger to law enforcement personnel and the public.' Since they can get a 'good shoot' ruling for taking down a 'dangerous person wielding a butter knife' there is certainly no incentive for them to sort out the motivations of a guy waving a gun.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Crazy guy shoots up Oklahoma diner and gets shot and killed by armed bystanders.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44256763
The shooter held an active license as an armed guard despite having a youtube channel talking about demonic attacks. Shouldn't this be a warning sign that he might not be the best kind of person to hold this kind of license?

In one of his clips, he complains of a demon-possessed squirrel, and in another of his refrigerator attacking him.
In a video uploaded weeks before the attack, he said: "I am under hardcore demonic attack, you know.

Yeah.......

 

[Berzerker]

Not one, but two men ran to their respective cars to grab their guns when a shooter opened fire at an Oklahoma City restaurant Thursday.

Police Capt. Bo Matthews said today that both of those men shot suspect Alexander C. Tilghman on Thursday. Tilghman died as a result of those gunshots.

The two civilians have been identified by police as Juan Carlos Nazario, 35, and Bryan Whittle, 39.

"You are welcome," Nazario said to local ABC affiliate KOCO after the shooting. "Just did what was trained to do to neutralize the situation."

Whittle’s family told ABC News that he served in Afghanistan and has been in the National Guard for almost 20 years.

From yahoo news

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Crazy guy shoots up Oklahoma diner and gets shot and killed by armed bystanders.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44256763
The shooter held an active license as an armed guard despite having a youtube channel talking about demonic attacks. Shouldn't this be a warning sign that he might not be the best kind of person to hold this kind of license?

Yeah.......

Bear in mind you only know about his youtube channel because people went searching for stuff after he'd gone on a shooting spree. It's probably fair to say that the licence issuers weren't aware of this.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Bear in mind you only know about his youtube channel because people went searching for stuff after he'd gone on a shooting spree. It's probably fair to say that the licence issuers weren't aware of this.

I'd agree... Which then brings up the question of whether its worse that they gave him the license without checking?

 

[Farm Boy]

Should his state government social media score have been too low to possess the full bundle of rights?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Should his state government social media score have been too low to possess the full bundle of rights?

I wish I could laugh at this, but it's a little too high risk to actually be a question someone with power is asking in the near future.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Should his state government social media score have been too low to possess the full bundle of rights?

So you watched that Black Mirror episode "Nosedive" afterall huh?

 

[Farm Boy]

No, but I listen when people tell a good story!

Though this is getting rolled out for sure, isn't it? I mean, it's an extension of credit score/employment background checks/targeted policing, but seriously. Biglybig data.

 

[Sommerswerd]

No, but I listen when people tell a good story!

Though this is getting rolled out for sure, isn't it? I mean, it's an extension of credit score/employment background checks/targeted policing, but seriously. Biglybig data.

It's already rolled out. I once saw a presentation on job hunting where one of the panelists said that his advice to us (students) was "Stay off the internet". His message was that the folks making the hiring decisions would not take kindly to any unflattering stuff on your social media activity and tended to see almost all activity as unflattering. So your best bet was to stay off social media entirely, because no footprint was better than a poor or embarrassing one.

... and that was 10 years ago.

 

[Berzerker]

words of wisdom

 

[Farm Boy]

Well yes, but at what point do the conversations tracked cease to be optional if one wants to participate in society? Alexa does spy for the NSA, you have to remember. Eventually the capacity will trickle down to the county, if we let it. Or encourage it pseudo Wechat style.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Well yes, but at what point do the conversations tracked cease to be optional if one wants to participate in society? Alexa does spy for the NSA, you have to remember. Eventually the capacity will trickle down to the county, if we let it. Or encourage it pseudo Wechat style.

I checked with the internets concerning your conceits about how much control we "let it" have over us. Here is the internetsesses' response:

Spoiler :

 

[Farm Boy]

Hope you kept the hardcopies.

 

[Sommerswerd]

The internets doesn't allow any such thing... it would imply that you don't trust it... and it simply can't allow you to do that Dave...

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I'd agree... Which then brings up the question of whether its worse that they gave him the license without checking?

Why would it be reasonable of them to trawl through the internet to try and find and analyse the social media presence of any applicant? How easy is it to even find someone's youtube channel (if they even have one, which most people don't) when you can create a channel with any name you like? Facial recognition software?

 

[Sommerswerd]

Why would it be reasonable of them to trawl through the internet to try and find and analyse the social media presence of any applicant?

Because its literally a matter of life and death, that's why.

How easy is it to even find someone's youtube channel (if they even have one, which most people don't) when you can create a channel with any name you like? Facial recognition software?

I have no idea. Why is that relevant? Is your position that if its difficult to check such a thing that it shouldn't be attempted? In matters of life and death?

 

[Farm Boy]

I don't know that non-clinical, non-criminial, non-civil actions, ie legal public actions recorded within the law, should be held against citizens exercising their rights. That seems fertile ground for government skew and some are less equal than others.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Because its literally a matter of life and death, that's why. I have no idea. Why is that relevant? Is your position that if its difficult to check such a thing that it shouldn't be attempted? In matters of life and death?

Well just from a logistical point of view it seems unworkable. Where are you going to draw the line? There needs to be a line somewhere. Trawling the internet for anything and everything a person may ever have posted is basically an open-ended task. How feasible is it to even find someone's YouTube channel if it's not under their name and they don't link to it from any social media platforms that ARE under their name? How long would you search for one before you decide it's safe to assume they don't have one? And even if they DON'T have one, how do you determine whether or not they're mentally unstable, but just don't happen to be making videos about it? Do you hire private investigators to tail them for months? Do you have them illegally enter their homes and access personal information to try and find out?

It's reasonable for them to perform background checks, but beyond checking with the police/FBI/whatever for criminal convictions, and with the relevant health authorities for medical and psychiatric records, exactly how proactive is it reasonable to expect them to be?