Who should own the means of violence?

[Broken_Erika]

I eagerly await the "thoughts & prayers" press releases from the spineless sacks of excrement that the NRA has appointed to represent us in Washington D.C.

Followed by an NRA publicity campaign saying how if these kids all had AR-15's with laser-sights, nigh-vision-scopes, drum-mags and bump-stocks, this would have been avoided.
Further, These are "Satire" but probably closer to the truth than you think

Veteran Congressman Can Still Remember When Inaction On Gun Violence Actually Presented A Moral Dilemma

White House: ‘This Is Not The Geologic Era To Debate Gun Control’

and, my favorite

NRA Says Mass Shootings Just The Unfortunate Price Of Protecting People’s Freedom To Commit Mass Shootings

 

[Kaitzilla]

Power corrupts, so there is always a measure of abuse from those who have power.
That being said, sorry, but where in the West is there anything even close to US level of violence in day to day police operations ?

Power does corrupt.

That is why everyone is the U.S.A. having guns is a good idea.
Everyone has the power to defend themselves if they think their lives are in danger.

As a bonus, the US will never be invaded unless the whole population was disarmed first.

 

[Synobun]

Unless your ideal world also includes every household possessing anti-tank weaponry and a communal SAM site, that's far-fetched at best.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Everyone has the power to defend themselves if they think their lives are in danger.

Do you not see the inherent problem in this? Maybe your neighbor who is afraid of his own shadow could explain it to you...or we can just give him a gun and let him shoot everyone he is afraid of.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Do you not see the inherent problem in this? Maybe your neighbor who is afraid of his own shadow could explain it to you...or we can just give him a gun and let him shoot everyone he is afraid of.

Everyone needs the power to defend themselves with deadly force.

The cops aren't obligated to protect citizens, they just arrest people after the crime happens.
No one except the rich can afford 24-hour bodyguards.
If a riot happens, it takes hours for the National Guard and military to show up.

What % of the US military did it take to help put down the LA riots in 1992?
I bet it was a decent fraction for one small part of one city.

In that school shooting in Florida, the school resource officer and the cops just waited around for the shooter to stop.

Until we can get a good estimate of defensive gun uses vs. bad gun uses per year, everyone is just preaching what they believe.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Moral legitimacy > legal legitimacy.

That's the position the Nazi's took too, before they effectively altered what was legal to their convenience.

 

[Akka]

Power does corrupt.

That is why everyone is the U.S.A. having guns is a good idea.

"to protect everyone, let's put everyone at risk"
Yeah, well, no.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Everyone needs the power to defend themselves with deadly force.

The cops aren't obligated to protect citizens, they just arrest people after the crime happens.
No one except the rich can afford 24-hour bodyguards.
If a riot happens, it takes hours for the National Guard and military to show up.

What % of the US military did it take to help put down the LA riots in 1992?
I bet it was a decent fraction for one small part of one city.

In that school shooting in Florida, the school resource officer and the cops just waited around for the shooter to stop.

Until we can get a good estimate of defensive gun uses vs. bad gun uses per year, everyone is just preaching what they believe.

Way to completely dodge the point. Your neighbor, or more importantly someone like you who thinks their lives are in constant danger, cannot be handed a gun and told "just shoot anyone who scares you." We have more than enough problems since we started telling police that was okay.

 

[cardgame]

That's the position the Nazi's took too, before they effectively altered what was legal to their convenience.

That's... a really, really terrible response to moral > legal

 

[Arwon]

That's the position the Nazi's took too, before they effectively altered what was legal to their convenience.

Good lord

 

[Berzerker]

What reacting are you doing if you're located right where the focus of the shooter is? You are not Neo.

But I'm not the focus, thats the point. And if the shooter is targeting me then the armed customer has an even better opportunity to take him out. Without either of us being armed we're both sitting ducks and the rampage continues unabated.

That's the position the Nazi's took too, before they effectively altered what was legal to their convenience.

Then wouldn't they argue legal legitimacy > moral legitimacy?

 

[Synobun]

But I'm not the focus, thats the point. And if the shooter is targeting me then the armed customer has an even better opportunity to take him out. Without either of us being armed we're both sitting ducks and the rampage continues unabated.

There is a reason why trained professionals are taught to go for center of mass. Accuracy, especially in a high danger scenario, is not easy to come by.

The point that you are missing is that when the shooter turns their attention to the armed bystander, you being next to the armed bystander directly puts you in greater danger than if you were elsewhere. Not every round will meet its target and you've just put yourself in the goldilocks zone for being the next best thing.

 

[Berzerker]

So if a shooter enters my aisle blasting away at people, I'm safer if none of the nearby customers has a gun?

 

[Synobun]

Not sure going with a "fish in a barrel" scenario is the best counter. If a shooter is (a) in your aisle and is (b) shooting, whether or not your fellow shoppers are packing heat in their back pocket is irrelevant. You're already dead.

 

[FriendlyFire]

So if a shooter enters my aisle blasting away at people, I'm safer if none of the nearby customers has a gun?

Phone the Whitehouse so that Bonespurs can rush in unarmed and show everyone how real men react to mass shooting
Look America has a violence problem, Guns are a big way of life especially in Rual areas and that something has to be done because of all these mass shooting.

 

[Camikaze]

That's the position the Nazi's took too, before they effectively altered what was legal to their convenience.

Hans Kelsen is currently spinning in his grave.

 

[uppi]

Everyone needs the power to defend themselves with deadly force.

No I don't. Risk of death comes with life. It is not like I can defend myself against being run over by a car, either, which is much more likely to happen than being shot.

 

[Lexicus]

That's the position the Nazi's took too, before they effectively altered what was legal to their convenience.

It's literally the position taken by every single movement that has sought to change or reform the law, ever. I mean, in an important sense it is also the position of all civilized societies since Late Antiquity, the end of the Axial Age, when law came to be understood to reflect ethical aspiration, rather than the despotism of a monarch or ritual submission to the gods.

Everyone needs the power to defend themselves with deadly force.

That's right, it's why I have a second amendment right to use nerve gas bombs to kill all the ammosexuals before they kill me. (@Timsup2nothin, I still don't think he's going to get it)

And to be clear....I'm not actually advocating this. I'm saying this would be the end-result of your absolutely absurd contention here. Conservatives genuinely do make me fear for my life all the time. It's just, fear doesn't make me feel like I need a gun to be safe.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Every household should have the right to possess a nuclear arsenal!

 

[Berzerker]

Not sure going with a "fish in a barrel" scenario is the best counter. If a shooter is (a) in your aisle and is (b) shooting, whether or not your fellow shoppers are packing heat in their back pocket is irrelevant. You're already dead.

It wasn't a counter, it was the scenario in my original argument about preferring an armed customer nearby if a shooter unleashes holy hell on the store I'm in. I said:

"We have open carry in Kansas... the first time I saw some young guy at Walmart with a side arm gave me pause. But then upon further reflection I realized if some nut started shooting the place up, I'd rather be near the guy with the gun on his hip."

and this was your counter:

"Smart move. You'll die faster that way. A nihilist's best case scenario."

If that shooter entered our aisle I'd be safer near someone with a gun