Fifty
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd take Leibniz and Kant over every French philosopher combined, to say nothing of the loads of other awesome German philosophers...
Why Americans dislike the French, or vice versa
- Thread starter Phlegmak
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I'd take Leibniz and Kant over every French philosopher combined, to say nothing of the loads of other awesome German philosophers...
Perfection
The Great Head.
So Fifty, why did Germany pur out so many more kickass philosophers then France?
More jewish blood.
Verbose
Deity
And the reason they did that around the mid 19th c. was because they had to in order to beat the until then dominant French science. Really, it's impossible to understand what the Germans did in science in the 19th c. without understanding what the French were doing prior to that. It's all interrelated, as anybody should be able to figure out.
Fifty
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Probably because German culture values being precise, industrious, and intelligent as a means towards producing great work, while French culture values sounding and looking intelligent as a sort of fashion statement to impress people over wine. That's why you get a lot of BS "philosophy" coming out of France that is just obscurantist garbage (e.g. Derrida).
That's not to say there aren't some great French philosophers. I mean Descartes towers above all the other Frenchie philosophers, but there were some other pretty good ones too (e.g. Rousseau, Arnauld, Foucault, Nicod).
Verbose
Deity
That would be the preverable interpretation.
Which is also VRWCAgent's take on it.
France used to be regarded by the US State Department as a "foul weather friend"; they'll make waves and be a nuisance when the sailing is smooth, but when things get serious they turn up to help.
Question is if it's true anymore... Iraq 2003 was the first instance since WWII where France hasn't supported the US on anything as major as that. People may or may not feel France got it right, but the question remains if that was a freak incident, or the beginning of a new pattern. It's too early to tell, and it depends on what the US does from now on even more than on what France does.
Other than that I'd put differences down to:
1) the US historical origin as a British colony (British being defined as "positive=not French");
2) WWII (accorded maximum essential representativity for what the US is, in the US, but regarded as a total aberration from French history in France); and
3), and most important, that the US and France both make a pitch of how their societies are embodiments of universal values and positive examples to be emulated by everyone else, and since these societies are in fact rather different, papering over this competition becomes harder.
Everything else, all the little and not so little incidents people latch on to, are interpreted in the light of the more basic competing notions of what US and French societies supposedly are.
Verbose
Deity
Would you consider someone like Heidegger "precise"?
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
Trace the dislike from the classic British and French rivalries of the past. There still not over the 100 years war.
Fifty
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
one man does not a philosophical culture make. if every Frenchie was like Descartes or Nicod, France would be in the same league as Germany. If every German was like Heidegger, then France would be in the same league as Germany. Unfortunately for France, neither of those things are true.
Heidegger was a serious philosopher though. He's lightyears ahead of many of the most famous french philosophers (famous to laypeople that is)
philippe
FYI, I chase trains.
Fluctuat nec mergitur
(Latin: "Tossed by the waves, she does not sink")
A perfect example to describe the relationship between France and the USA by the motto of Parris
(Latin: "Tossed by the waves, she does not sink")
A perfect example to describe the relationship between France and the USA by the motto of Parris
philippe
FYI, I chase trains.
philippe
FYI, I chase trains.
.... delete
Verbose
Deity
Except the French as a whole are absolutely lousy with Cartesian logic. That in itself doesn't lead to philosophy (probably the opposite), but seriously man, I think you're taking too limited a view of both the history of philosophy in either country, and what has been going on outside philosophy proper.
There's Leibnitz and Kant in Germany, and yet somehow then it all derails into Herder, Fichte, Schelling, Hegel, the Schleiermacher brothers etc., all this Naturphilosophe and idealistic dialectics. And then you get the reaction, so along come the Mechanistic Materialists like Büchner, Vogt and Haeckel, and less extreme philosophers like Herbart (Kant's successor, second most important German philosopher after him in the 19th c.) and the neo-herbartians, and a whole group like Post etc. taking their cues from J.S. Mill, and then there's always Marx. Which leads to the next reaction, and then you get the downright irrationalist philosophers, full of crap about Destiny, Blood, Soil, Race and Aryans, and by that I do not refer to Nietzsche. (He did pick up some tidbits from that quarter though, most importantly from the German-American national economist Theodor Poesche.)
In general German philosophical tradition tends to be idealistic. Which wouldn't seem to go over too well these days. To get the kind of line-up of major philosophers you seem to recognise you have to cherry-pick them. If you do that for Germany, Germany looks good, if you don't do it for France, France looks bad.
But I'll happily grant that Germany has turned out a damn sight more philosophy than France through the ages, I just can't see how they have provided more consistent quality.
And of course, my perspective on this is 100% historical. As such, I find it interesting that you are taking exception at French 20th c. philosophers — which is your prerogative (and I'll nod along to the castig out of someone like Lacan, and even Derrida) — but I am wondering where their contemporary German philosophers of similar stature are, to be eiher lauded or condemned?
Murky
Deity
If you look at the French prior to WW1 they were a fairly feisty bunch of people who were more warlike. During the time of Napoleon they were feared throughout Europe. Napoleon's blunder lost a great many troops to the Russian winter. They also took the brunt of the losses during WW1. This took away a good portion of their warrior cast, leaving them with more of the cultural types. Now they tend to be more diplomatic and less aggressive but not less snobby.
Verbose
Deity
And yet all modern armies special forces are sporting berets.
I wonder how many realise they do so in imitation of the French, from back in the days when it was the measured opinion the French were the most bad-ass things walking in a pair of shoes?
What 100 years war? All the history books are mistaken. There was no 100 years war between France and England, it's closer to the 1000 years war.
nonconformist
Miserable
The French Foreign Legion is very much idolised by people who have little idea of what it is;
for some reason, Americans and Brits see the Foreign Legion as a sort of all-French super special forces fighting force, when in reality, it is/was made up mostly of misfits, foreigners who had gone into exile, and criminals who had been offered the choice of serving in the Legion rather than go to prison.
Instead, take a look at the GIGN, and EPIGN.
That's no longer true. It was in the good old time, but now the Legion doesn't accept criminals anymore.
nonconformist
Miserable
Since when has that policy been in effect?
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