Why are we here?

[FearlessLeader2]

We may be a little off-topic, but it's my thread, so I guess it's okay.

If you think we are here to learn some lessons, before entering the eternal.

It's not a matter of what I think, it's a matter of what the Bible says.

And if you belive Jesus' messages are the most important lessons, what was God's idea with life on earth before Jesus came around?

Adam and Eve were immortal from the start. We would have been born that way if they had not sinned.

Did God purposely create the world and humans, without a proper way to learn the lessons for immortality, so he could send this proper way later on?

Before sending a volunteer to show them the way, God gave the Israelites lots of chances and ample time to turn things around themselves. It was only after their repeated disappointments and failures that He (and I really wish you would show proper respect when you refer to God in the third person) allowed Jesus to come and show us the way.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Surprise, I've been thinking about this all this time. And what you put there is dang close to the mark.

I'm about to lose (if I haven't already) all of the anti-deists. Accepting that God (specifically, the God described in the Bible) is real, and did create us, that leaves me with the knowledge that a) I was meant to be immortal, and that b) I have the chance to regain that status.

Maybe you are already immortal and just don't know it. The new Testament has been interpreted that way in the past. Are souls immortal by their very nature? Hell could be for those who never figure that out.

Examination of Scripture in this regard reveals that the purpose of our lives here in this 'system of things' (Jesus' phrase to describe our materialistic world) is to learn what is important and what is not. We're here to prepare ourselves for immortality. We have to learn to eschew materialism, and embrace the things that stand the test of time.

What is the point of acquiring materials that are subject to entropic forces when onesself is not? At some point after acquiring them, they will wither, rot, decay, or fade. Why seek to establish dominion over others, or dynasty of dominion, when sooner or later it will get boring giving the same silly orders and hearing the same silly reports?

All good points from many perspectives; many christians would probably disagree that christians shouldn't be rich and powerful.

Wealth and power are ghosts, illusions, that have no permanence, and hold no power over the immortal. In a world of immortals, the only lasting things are the immortals themselves, and the feelings they have for one another.

I'm not sure who your immortals are here. Saved christians? Angels? Those in heaven? Thse struggling to be saved?

Anger, gluttony, envy, lust, greed, sloth, and pride, when magnified down the long years of an immortal life, would create unbearable situations. It is our task to learn how to unlearn these things, live without what inspires them, and most importantly of all, never miss them.

Good goals for theists and atheists and christians too.

The best way to do this is as a community or family that shows love to its members. Love is the nemesis of all seven sins, none of them can endure where love is active. 'Love thy neighbor' is not just a good idea, it's the only way to make immortality bearable. That's why it is neccessary to spread Jesus' message to the entire inhabited earth, so that everyone will have the knowledge they need to prepare for the future that awaits all who can do so successfully.

Love is a common thread worldwide across many cultures and times. Will a Zoroastrian, Sufi, Hindu or Buddhist who faithfully practices love but only "lacks" belief in Jesus go to heaven?

...He (and I really wish you would show proper respect when you refer to God in the third person)....

First letter capitalization is a European language convention of recent origin. God certainly accepted a lack of capitals for many thousands of years prior. And He still does in those languages that don't use them. I fear your desire for others to comply with your personal conventions is more reflective of human frailty rather than a divine decree.

I know in the old testament God was a mean SOB and seemed to fly off the handle at the tiniest infraction or even without any known provocation. By the time of Jesus, He had softened a bit and figured out that you catch more flies with sugar than with vineagar. I'm sure He'll let the capitalization thing slide, even if you can't.

 

[Masquerouge]

I don't think "Why" is a relevant question. I usually don't bother with it, since I tend to think that it's a loophole. To understand why we'here, we need to get ourselves out of ourselves (???). A bit like the Heiselberg principle. One can not at the same time be, and know why. Plus I don't think there's a notion of purpose outside Man.
I find the "How" much more interesting, along with the "And now what do we do with it ?"

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Edited to group common points...

Maybe you are already immortal and just don't know it. The new Testament has been interpreted that way in the past. Are souls immortal by their very nature? Hell could be for those who never figure that out.

Our current condition is one of death. We begin dying as soon as we draw our first breath, a condition we inherited from Adam's original sin.

I'm not sure who your immortals are here. Saved christians? Angels? Those in heaven? Thse struggling to be saved?

Humans living on earth in perfect bodies like Adam and Eve and Jesus had. "...and He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more..."

All good points from many perspectives; many christians would probably disagree that christians shouldn't be rich and powerful.

Correction, many self-professed Christians would disagree.

Good goals for theists and atheists and christians too.

Love is a common thread worldwide across many cultures and times. Will a Zoroastrian, Sufi, Hindu or Buddhist who faithfully practices love but only "lacks" belief in Jesus go to heaven?

Noone will go to heaven if they are not specially chosen from those who gain salvation by Jehovah to join the little flock of 144,000. No one will gain salvation except through faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice. (John 14:6) If your 'Zoroastrian, Sufi, Hindu or Buddhist who faithfully practices love' hears and rejects the message, then he will not gain salvation. If he does not hear the message and dies, then I would assume that he will be resurrected for the 1,000-year reign of Christ after Armageddon to hear it and decide. If that is the case, earth will be plenty crowded at that time.

First letter capitalization is a European language convention of recent origin. *SNIP* I'm sure He'll let the capitalization thing slide, even if you can't.

I am apolitical, and will swear allegiance to no man or country, yet I stand quietly while others give the Pledge. I do not share in the worship services of other religions, yet I bow my head respectfully and remain quiet when those outside my religion pray in my presence. It's a respect thing. For the same reason I capitalize Allah, Baal, and Bhudda, I expect others to capitalize pronouns and the word God when either is used in reference to Jehovah.

I don't think "Why" is a relevant question. I usually don't bother with it, since I tend to think that it's a loophole. To understand why we'here, we need to get ourselves out of ourselves (???). A bit like the Heiselberg principle. One can not at the same time be, and know why. Plus I don't think there's a notion of purpose outside Man.
I find the "How" much more interesting, along with the "And now what do we do with it ?"

'How' is already answered if there is no 'why'. An accident.

'And now what do we do with it?' becomes equally easy to answer. Anything we can get away with.

If we are nothing but accidents, then all moral philosophies are naught but accidental ideas hatched by accidental intellects and accidentally followed by accidents. As such, all are meaningless drivel, and logically should be ignored.

Seriously, if we were not created purposely, then why place any value on our or any other lives? Why place value on anything at all? There is no logical reason to support the idea of placing value on an accident, so any value system that we accidents create for ourselves can have no value. Let's face it, if the atheists are right, then all of this is an accident, and there is no point in continuing it or nurturing it, so let's tear this baby down.

...if we're all just accidents.

 

[Gothmog]

Seriously, if we were not created purposely, then why place any value on our or any other lives? Why place value on anything at all?

FL2, seriously this could be right out of the 'How to recognize a sociopath' handbook. How can you even ask 'why place value...'? Don't you know? Can't you feel it in your heart? Things do have value to humans, if you give it to them or if God does how is any different from our perspective?

There is no logical reason to support the idea of placing value on an accident

Heh, this made me think of your various arguments vs. abortion.

Seriously, People do value other people’s lives; people do value their own lives, people even value silly things like a birthday card or a walk in the park (well, with the exception of sociopaths and others that we deem mentally deficient).

Logical? To some people yes, to others apparently no. I guess it depends on where you start your logic, that is what you take for granted as true. Most people, belief in God or not, take the idea of there being value in human life as a given.

so any value system that we accidents create for ourselves can have no value.

Again it depends on if you value human life, or human society. Value systems have historically helped to create civilizations, as well as give meaning to some peoples lives. To me, and to most humans, that inherently gives them value (value systems that is).

It sounds like you are using this argument as a hedge against a possible weakening of belief. In fact, I approve because it seems that if your belief weakens enough you will feel that

there is no point in continuing it or nurturing it, so let's tear this baby down.

That's quite a scary image.

 

[PantheraTigris2]

My 2nd go at this thread:

We are here... to discover why we are here!

(Hey, if nothing else... )

 

[Birdjaguar]

Our current condition is one of death. We begin dying as soon as we draw our first breath, a condition we inherited from Adam's original sin.

Those not busy being born are busy dying

I think physiologically you (and Dylan) are wrong. Our bodies and minds peak in out twenties and begin the long slow decline then. On some other scale you might be right, but I don't know what that scale would be. In my previous post I asked about the immortality of the soul. You skipped over a direct answer and danced around a position of: it is not immortal. Is that what you meant?

Humans living on earth in perfect bodies like Adam and Eve and Jesus had. "...and He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more..."

OK, Adam and Eve lost their perfect bodies and Jesus took himself out of the world. So who is around that has such a perfect body? Is there anyone you can name? So far the total is one immortal. Joseph? Mary? St. Francis? Isaiah?

No one will go to heaven if they are not specially chosen from those who gain salvation by Jehovah to join the little flock of 144,000. No one will gain salvation except through faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice. (John 14:6)

So those who get to heaven are chosen by God. Can God choose whoever he wants? Or does he have to follow specific rules. If God does not do the choosing, who does?

If your 'Zoroastrian, Sufi, Hindu or Buddhist who faithfully practices love' hears and rejects the message, then he will not gain salvation. If he does not hear the message and dies, then I would assume that he will be resurrected for the 1,000-year reign of Christ after Armageddon to hear it and decide. If that is the case, earth will be plenty crowded at that time.

And if our Hindu accepts Jesus during the 1,000 year reign, what is in store for him/her at the end of that time?

 

[danirus]

The hindus believe that Jesus was a profet, not the first and not the last.

I belive everyone agrees that our lifes becomes largely what we make of it or what we are allowed to make of it. Even if we would just be a happening by chance it would make one basic goal for all of us, to survive and live a happy life. A logical thought would then be spread good around you because then people give it back to you. The concept of love.

Yes, physically you are just a dot of energy and matter in an universal entity of time, space and beyond but remember that even science is very much alike religion. Cause and effect, there are many philosofies around it, some considered religion and some science or philosophy. Whatever path you wish to wander there is always a undeniable thing, that there is an existance simply because you can sit down and watch what i am writing in this ver moment. Science today suggests quantum dimensions with physical universes of other planes than we can see with our collection of earthly senses. The giant seemingly unlimited unknown around us, regardless of consistance, forms an entity with a size beyond our brains capacity. Religion and many philosofies suggests that there is more than this, that there is a cosmic circle. To get basic i think it all comes down to that if you believe that there is a meaning you will see one.

The question if there are more than just the reality you are experiencing right now is a different subject but related. Personally i believe there is more than that and that the grande existance can be called God or not. It's the same coin, different sides, it's there and it's undeniable also it is completely up to yourself what to do with what you are given in this life. Then there is death and what eventually comes after it but that is a completely different subject. Personally i believe that our soul lives on.

 

[Birdjaguar]

The hindus believe that Jesus was a profet, not the first and not the last.

Be that as it may, FL2 expects a full blown conversion and rebirth in Jesus' name for someone to qualify. Simply accepting Jesus as one of several manifestations of God doesn't quite cut it for him.

 

[Masquerouge]

If we are nothing but accidents, then all moral philosophies are naught but accidental ideas hatched by accidental intellects and accidentally followed by accidents. As such, all are meaningless drivel, and logically should be ignored.

That's not true at all. First we're not accidents, we're logical and physical evolution from the original start (IMHO). And we have value, simply because we ARE. We recognize that value by caring for each other and for life (that might sound idealistic, but after all most people on Earth are not ready to savagely murder everyone), and by obeying to various "moral philosophies", some of them being divine, like your god, some of them being agnostic, but all of them holding life as something precious.

Seriously, if we were not created purposely, then why place any value on our or any other lives? Why place value on anything at all? There is no logical reason to support the idea of placing value on an accident, so any value system that we accidents create for ourselves can have no value. Let's face it, if the atheists are right, then all of this is an accident, and there is no point in continuing it or nurturing it, so let's tear this baby down.

Once again, value has nothing to do with purpose. To use an analogy, it's not because you stumble on a diamond by chance, that the diamond has no value.
There's no logical reason to support the idea of placing value on an accident ? WHY ? My logic is the following :
- we, as humans, are able to place value on anything we want, because we are sentient, and because we came up with the idea of value.
- if we decide to say that life is valuable, then it is valuable.

The problem in your reasoning is that you ASSUME "value" is something absolute and intrinsical, whereas one could very reasonably argue that it's not, and that if there was no humans, there would be no value. Needless to say, that's what I think

 

[bigfatron]

First, I wanted to say FL2 has made some exceptional contributions in this post - I've really enjoyed reading through them. Thanks FL2!

However, I fundamentally disagree with his conclusions.

What he has encapsulated for me is, I think, the essence of my problem with the Christian message: essentially, the only element of humanity or creation that has any value is that tiny spark created in us by God. Everything else, every human creation, every miracle of nature, is essentially valueless. Every act of kindness or decency, every step of progress against the ravages of life - disease, hunger, poverty, violence - was pointless unless it was done in Jesus' name.

I find this message profoundly disturbing - it appears that the propounders of this gospel wish to magnify God by diminishing themselves and all of humanity, to relegate this earth and the entire universe as serving only to be petrie dish in which the Lord can separate the few sheep from the many goats (144,000 from the approximately 10 billion who have lived on earth so far - very bad odds even for a devout believer?!)

In contrast I see uncertainty as liberating, if a little scary too. If the universe just IS (or if it was created by a power we simply cannot and do not understand), then as thinking beings we have the opportunity to establish our own purposes, to assign our own values. We can do this using our intellect to ensure that our choices make logical sense, and our empathy to ensure that they are morally valid - we are blessed with both these attributes.

Such purposes, assessed by people who exist within the universe, must by definition contain some element of subjectivity, but I fail to see why this is a problem - it doesn't make the exercise pointless, in fact to me it makes it even more important that we accept responsibility for this, the biggest question of all. The question doesn't need a perfect or definitive answer - in fact we achieve most by simply asking the question of ourselves in the first place.

In a small way we see this all around us - the best workers and managers don't wait for some superior to tell them why they are employed and exactly what they should do - they empower themselves by taking responsibility to determine their purpose, and on occasions to amend that purpose to fit changed circumstances. By doing so, they empower their, perhaps less gifted, co-workers. These type of guys (and gals!) sometimes make mistakes, they may misinterpret situations on occasions, but generally speaking they are like gold-dust; they transform the part of the organisation that they manage in a positive way - as a manager they are my favourite people to have working for me!

The idea that the creator is analgous to that worst of managers - the one that tells staff that they don't need to understand why they do things, just to follow instructions, be an obedient worker and trust him/the CEO/the company - this idea is demeaning to any creator that I can envisage, as much as it demeans us as thinking beings.

I see this question as that situation writ large - I don't need my purpose to be determined by an externality, especially if it is so denigrating to humanity and so profoundly diminishing. I can develop my own subjective purpose, just as I can develop a subjective view of morality that is IMHO as satisfying and valid as any produced by religion.

I think it just takes a little courage.....

 

[Birdjaguar]

@bigfatron: Nice post

 

[danirus]

God would never be as stupid as sending a single person to change the whole world. Other religions suggests God has taken human form and walked on earth himself. The problem with the Bible according to me is it's credability. It is not meant to be taken literally it's way of telling wisdoms and it is often done with the use of metaphors. Also, humans wrote the Bible and have translated it numerous times. Modern chrisitanity has lost contact with much of the original theology of their religion. The Bible was not the only theological documents and is still not. Sadly, very many individuals are born into a tradition of unquestionable faith and i believe that in too many cases their beliefs and intentions are not completely sincere.
Example:
A true christian would do any form of charity for God and because they want to do good themselves.
Some would do it because it is written in the bible in some way.
I think this is sad, it gives spirituality a bad name.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Be that as it may, FL2 expects a full blown conversion and rebirth in Jesus' name for someone to qualify. Simply accepting Jesus as one of several manifestations of God doesn't quite cut it for him.

I don't expect anything...

John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth and the life. Noone come to the Father except through me."

 

[FearlessLeader2]

That's not true at all. First we're not accidents, we're logical and physical evolution from the original start (IMHO).

Which was an accident if there was no Creator, hence, we are nothing more than side-effects of an accident.

And we have value, simply because we ARE.

Syphillis simply is. It must possess equal value. Under your system, it does. We are equally worthwhile to microbes.

We recognize that value by caring for each other and for life (that might sound idealistic, but after all most people on Earth are not ready to savagely murder everyone), and by obeying to various "moral philosophies", some of them being divine, like your god, some of them being agnostic, but all of them holding life as something precious.

But without an objective morality, handed down by a higher authority, no human moral system is anything but relative, and therefore is naught but a meaningless expediency.

Once again, value has nothing to do with purpose. To use an analogy, it's not because you stumble on a diamond by chance, that the diamond has no value.

A bad analogy. A diamond has value only to us, and that is subjective. You seek to place an objective value on human life, but you have nothing to back that up with without a Creator.

There's no logical reason to support the idea of placing value on an accident ? WHY ? My logic is the following :
- we, as humans, are able to place value on anything we want, because we are sentient, and because we came up with the idea of value.
- if we decide to say that life is valuable, then it is valuable.

And that is a subjective value.

The problem in your reasoning is that you ASSUME "value" is something absolute and intrinsical, whereas one could very reasonably argue that it's not, and that if there was no humans, there would be no value. Needless to say, that's what I think

You can argue that a subjective value is important, but in the end anyone who disagrees with you is right to do so because their opinion holds just as much value.

Unless life is objectively worthwhile, it has no intrinsic, unchallengable value.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

Life is meaningless. Tell me again why this means I can't enjoy myself?

 

[FearlessLeader2]

First, I wanted to say FL2 has made some exceptional contributions in this post - I've really enjoyed reading through them. Thanks FL2!

Sure, no prob.

However, I fundamentally disagree with his conclusions.

What he has encapsulated for me is, I think, the essence of my problem with the Christian message: essentially, the only element of humanity or creation that has any value is that tiny spark created in us by God.

God created an entire universe for us to enjoy, custom-tailored a planet to suit us, sent His own son down to redeem us, and you think it is His intent to tell us we are not important? We are the apple of God's eye.

Everything else, every human creation, every miracle of nature, is essentially valueless. Every act of kindness or decency, every step of progress against the ravages of life - disease, hunger, poverty, violence - was pointless unless it was done in Jesus' name.

The 'miracles of nature' belong to and come from God. Human kindness and decency do not go overlooked. What you fail to comprehend is that all of the tiny steps man has made against mortality are part of the futility that Creation has been subjected to by Satan. Until his challenge to God's authority is answered for all time, we are just spinning our wheels. The only works we do that have meaning are those that show our faith in Jesus, because our real work can't begin until we are ready, and we won't be ready for it until we are back to our normal conditions of immortality and brotherhood. Much as a sick man stays home from work and rests to get well, mankind seeks to recover from original sin so that we can 'go back to work'. It's just that some of us aren't 'resting and recovering' we're up and around keeping ourselves sick and dying.

I find this message profoundly disturbing - it appears that the propounders of this gospel wish to magnify God by diminishing themselves and all of humanity, to relegate this earth and the entire universe as serving only to be petrie dish in which the Lord can separate the few sheep from the many goats (144,000 from the approximately 10 billion who have lived on earth so far - very bad odds even for a devout believer?!)

Again you misunderstand. The 144,000 are not the only ones to be saved, they are merely the 'little flock' that will join in ruling the world (universe?) from Heaven after Armageddon. There is also the 'great crowd' of Christians who will populate the earth (universe?) as immortal humans who never know the ravages of disease, war, hunger, etc... after Armageddon when it is restored to paradise conditions like those in the Garden of Eden.

In contrast I see uncertainty as liberating, if a little scary too. If the universe just IS (or if it was created by a power we simply cannot and do not understand), then as thinking beings we have the opportunity to establish our own purposes, to assign our own values.

Which will be subjective, and therefore meaningless. Only an objective morality that is equally applied to every living being is a valid one. Only from such a morality can just laws and ethics be gained. Only from a higher authority can such an objective morality come.

We can do this using our intellect to ensure that our choices make logical sense, and our empathy to ensure that they are morally valid - we are blessed with both these attributes.

Our capacities for rational thought and empathy vary wildly from person to person. It is impossible to craft an objective morality from such unsteady hands.

Such purposes, assessed by people who exist within the universe, must by definition contain some element of subjectivity, but I fail to see why this is a problem - it doesn't make the exercise pointless, in fact to me it makes it even more important that we accept responsibility for this, the biggest question of all. The question doesn't need a perfect or definitive answer - in fact we achieve most by simply asking the question of ourselves in the first place.

Only the objective can be justified, the subjective can only be agreed upon.

In a small way we see this all around us - the best workers and managers don't wait for some superior to tell them why they are employed and exactly what they should do - they empower themselves by taking responsibility to determine their purpose, and on occasions to amend that purpose to fit changed circumstances.

Nonsense. If I (a worker) changed the parameters of my job and started doing whatever I thought best fit the new parameters, I'd get fired. You might think the world should work that way, but if you try to live by that standard, you'll be eating out of the same dumpster you live in.

By doing so, they empower their, perhaps less gifted, co-workers. These type of guys (and gals!) sometimes make mistakes, they may misinterpret situations on occasions, but generally speaking they are like gold-dust; they transform the part of the organisation that they manage in a positive way - as a manager they are my favourite people to have working for me!

O to live in your world... upper managment is about as far from reality as you can get without being independantly wealthy. Jesus' warning about camels and eyes of needles starts to make more sense... Tell me, outside of your own world, do you see any evidence that anyone else with your temporal power acts in a benevolent and selfless manner?

Here on earth, when someone takes responsibility for something outside of their job description, and then screws it up, they get canned so fast it makes your head spin. Usually they get canned even if they don't screw up.

The idea that the creator is analgous to that worst of managers - the one that tells staff that they don't need to understand why they do things, just to follow instructions, be an obedient worker and trust him/the CEO/the company - this idea is demeaning to any creator that I can envisage, as much as it demeans us as thinking beings.

Right now we are pale shadows of what we were meant to be. We grow old, die, and deteriorate in our capacities along the way. Only when mortality is a forgotten past will we have the long-term view that real thinking and doing requires. We're too mired in our own mortality to do anything useful for God yet. Once Creation is fixed from the damage that Satan did, it can get back to whatever purpose God had in mind when He made us. To get there, we badly damaged and nearly useless sheeple need to follow some instructions, work hard, be obedient, and trust in Jesus to lead us back to our rightful place in the universe.

I see this question as that situation writ large - I don't need my purpose to be determined by an externality, especially if it is so denigrating to humanity and so profoundly diminishing.

Being restored to our rightful place in the universe is neither.

I can develop my own subjective purpose, just as I can develop a subjective view of morality that is IMHO as satisfying and valid as any produced by religion.

How can your subjective purpose lead to harmony with others if they do not share it? One of the fastest ways to make enemies and irritate people is to work at cross purposes to them. Only in sharing a common goal can humanity achieve its destiny.

I think it just takes a little courage.....

In this we agree partially. I think it also takes a heaping mound of love.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Life is meaningless. Tell me again why this means I can't enjoy myself?

Logic failure.

If life has no meaning or purpose, then the only logical path to take is nihilistic hedonism. Attaching any value to lives other than your own for any reason other than what they can supply you with in terms of pleasure or security to seek it is a total logic failure if life has no meaning.

Doesn't sound like a very harmonious way to live, does it?

 

[~Corsair#01~]

Logic failure.

If life has no meaning or purpose, then the only logical path to take is nihilistic hedonism. Attaching any value to lives other than your own for any reason other than what they can supply you with in terms of pleasure or security to seek it is a total logic failure if life has no meaning.

Doesn't sound like a very harmonious way to live, does it?

What's wrong with being illogical. Besides, we're indoctrinated by our education systems to have morals and such, so logic can be avoided quite easily.
I don't think I or anything else has any real value, outside of any benefits I gain from them.
As far as meaning, life means whatever you want it to mean. Me, I just think it's fun, nothing more, nothing less. Better than the alternative, at least.

Nihilistic hedonism is good...[zombie]join us...[/zombie]

 

[FearlessLeader2]

*Backs away slowly, avoiding eye contact, making no sudden moves.*