Why are we here?

[Stapel]

Great piece of philosophy FL2! Written from a neutral point of view. Quite good!
Maybe this is a good point for me to apologise for the 'rather tasteless comment about Christs' conception, I made a view weeks ago.

That leads me to what I guess is the last question for now:

If there is no objective purpose to life, the universe, and everything, does a subjective purpose give meaning to one's existence, or merely hide the meaninglessness of it?

This also answers saga's question, I hope

I think you have expressed my thoughts, better than I could have dobe it myself!

As you might know, I am pretty much convinced there is no objective purpose to life, the universe, and everything. As said before, I think in the maelstrom of matter, energy and time, there are gazillions of universes /palnets, and we happen to be on one of them. Just by chance.

Yet, I do think life has a purpose and/or meaning. That is indeed subjective. I think there is massive evidence for the meaning of life to be subjective. In our history people have dedicated their lifes to a great variety of things:
-studying our solar system
-inventing a lightbulb
-inquisition
-searching for holocaust criminals
-finding Jesus
-playing C3C
-breaking a track&field record

Just to mention some completely different purposes people have given themselves. Some of them are good, others are evil, and others are empty (as in good for nothing).

There is so much variety, that the meaning of life MUST be subjective.
Some might argue all good purposes in life are stimulated by the goodness of God, and that those people who have an evil purpose were tempted by the devil. Well, I don't. Especially since the empty purposes do not fit in (like studying for 10 days how corruption works in patch 1.15). And some people will argue a lightbulb is evil!

Maybe, making these subjective purposes do indeed nothing but hiding the meaninglessness of life. That is an interesting theory. In fact, you provided an answer!
But alltogether, all these subjective purposes have lead to more prosperity. Some might argue that, but I don't think I would rather live in a 1900 Netherlands, or earlier.

 

[Stapel]

An interesting collection of thoughts. The two initial choices were a little weak, but you carried the idea to a thoughtful conclusion.

I am still impressed!

 

[Ayatollah So]

If there is no objective purpose to life, the universe, and everything, does a subjective purpose give meaning to one's existence, or merely hide the meaninglessness of it?

Suppose there are both an externally-imposed purpose, and a personal purpose to your life. The personal purpose is the important one. The other is yours to accept or reject, and it's not clear why you should accept it.

I'd stand your last idea on its head. Rather than the "subjective" purpose hiding meaninglessness, the "objective" one (if there is one) hides the meaningfulness of the personal purpose.

 

[HamaticBabylon]

Read the quran in arabic, if you want to find out why we are here.

 

[Stapel]

Read the quran in arabic, if you want to find out why we are here.

The quran is about the same human work as the bible.
It simply tells Mohammed's subjective purpose, with lots of feed back from earlier prophets.

 

[Azadre]

The quran is about the same human work as the bible.
It simply tells Mohammed's subjective purpose, with lots of feed back from earlier prophets.

Not quite. The Qur'an is basically what Gabrial told Mohammed(pbuh). It is the word of Allah and has remain unchanged in the Arabic text. According to the Holy Qur'an, Allah has said our sole reason for being here is to worship Allah.

 

[Stapel]

Not quite. The Qur'an is basically what Gabrial told Mohammed(pbuh). It is the word of Allah and has remain unchanged in the Arabic text. According to the Holy Qur'an, Allah has said our sole reason for being here is to worship Allah.

What I meant: the Qur'an is the word of Mohammed. I am pretty sure it was not told to him by Gabriel or Allah, so I guess he made it up, or got it from many many different other sources. These sources probaly being human sources.

Whether is has changed or not since that period, isn't too important.

 

[vonork]

If there is no objective purpose to life, the universe, and everything, does a subjective purpose give meaning to one's existence, or merely hide the meaninglessness of it?

Both, or well, if you find a purpose then in the small world of you - there sudenly is a meaning, however in the big picture this is mearly a way to hide meaningless.

I do however belive that most people don't think about why, like they ignore the fact that they will prob die.

 

[Saga of Gemini]

You are right to say that matter and things made of matter do not have any intrinsic value or worth other than what we impart to it. It also means that all matter has the same value (zero). Now as a thinking human, I impart value to things and rank them. My wife and kids are more valuable to me than the neighbor's dog. The value I add is relative to my situation and very real. I make important decisons based on how I value things. Somebody else will have different values attached to the same lumps of matter.

If there is a god, then whatever values he sees in things is what is correct. In hinduism all creation has the same value in god's eyes: zero! In christianity humans are raised above the other critters and therefore have higher value in god's eyes.

Where you choose to view the world from will determine what you see.

but its not really real rigth?.

So whats the point of apointing values? if what gaves us the capacity of giving value to things is not real? How do we know fruit flys dont do the same?.

As a matter of fact they do...dont they place the importance on reproducing and eating?

Therefore my family your family etc...is as valuable as a a piece of fruit.

Thats why I think ( ME, this are my thougths) if we have the capacity u mentioned ( wich I agree BTW but from my own point of view) it has to have a motive further great than the fruit fly philosophy.

So in that sense your family has more value than it would have ( in my opinion) if u brougth everything down to 0 like the naturalistic point of views want us to believe.

But thats just me he.

 

[Birdjaguar]

but its not really real rigth?.

So whats the point of apointing values? if what gaves us the capacity of giving value to things is not real? How do we know fruit flys dont do the same?.
Thats why I think ( ME, this are my thougths) if we have the capacity u mentioned ( wich I agree BTW but from my own point of view) it has to have a motive further great than the fruit fly philosophy.

So in that sense your family has more value than it would have ( in my opinion) if u brougth everything down to 0 like the naturalistic point of views want us to believe.

We use value and values to organize our lives and our thinking. Fruit flies organize their world through instinct and whatever limited learning capability they have. We use our instincts too, but add layers of complexity on top. We use learning, cultural practices, religion, social pressure, media etc. as inputs that help us to define how we value and organize people and things around us. If there is an overarching moral structure to the universe, how I as an individual view the world may not have any connection to that god defined perspective. If it does, so much the better.

 

[Azadre]

What I meant: the Qur'an is the word of Mohammed. I am pretty sure it was not told to him by Gabriel or Allah, so I guess he made it up, or got it from many many different other sources. These sources probaly being human sources.

Whether is has changed or not since that period, isn't too important.

You should edit your post and add an "I believe:" to the beginning. I believe it was divine and I feel you should not go around as if what I believe is false. I do not press upon you that you should believe it. It can not be proven false. If you believe, it can be proven true. If you don't, it can not be proven true.

 

[Mescalhead]

How are we here, is a more sane question. There may be no apparent purpose, but there must be a reason.

 

[Stapel]

You should edit your post and add an "I believe:" to the beginning. I believe it was divine and I feel you should not go around as if what I believe is false. I do not press upon you that you should believe it. It can not be proven false. If you believe, it can be proven true. If you don't, it can not be proven true.

Well, this is not the right thread, but I'd like to express to you in a very strong way that you cannot possibly know what I believe! Believing is for the religious. Please do not accuse me of believing! I do not believe! You do!

There is no point in proving the non existance of anything. I cannot prove there is no planet with billions of gorgious women willing to please me, and CIV XXVI already out. So, am I believing there is no such planet? Or do I know it is not there?

What people want to believe, is upto any individual. But usually, what people believe is false. I do not belive so, I know so: If what the Sunnites believe is true, what the Catholics, Shiites, and Hindu believe is false.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Mesc,
As I said earlier, How is for the Evo-Crea threads, not this one. It may be a saner question, but it is ultimately not a question that gives meaning.

Stapel, Gothy, and BJ,
Thanks for the support on the agnostic-atheistic side. I have to admit I am disappointed that subjectivism is all you can come up with though.

Azadre, Saga, and HB,
As a theist, I am most interested in Saga's answer, because it implies an actual reason behind the purpose, even if that reason remains hidden. Existing for no reason other than to worship my Creator does not speak well of Him. It speaks to vanity and insecurity, which are poor qualities in a leader. Origen's ideas mesh well with those of the Hindu IIRC, but are not found within the Bible, so they are mere speculation as regards Christianity.

Christianity, and Judaism before it, do not speak to a reason for Creation. Will God tell us why after Armageddon? The Bible is mute on the subject. Saying that we will find out then is just more speculation.

The fact is, the only religion that makes a real stab at purpose is Hinduism, and that purpose (Nirvana) is really not all that purposeful if you ask me. What good is enlightenment if its only purpose is enlightenment?

Am I asking too much of reality? All I want is a meaning for my being brought squalling from entropy on October 7th, 1969, 0145 EST, a meaning for the universe in which that happened coming to be. Is that so much to ask?

I can see now why so many people are willing to embrace subjectivism, it is a lot easier than asking oneself the really hard questions.

 

[Stapel]

Stapel, Gothy, and BJ,
Thanks for the support on the agnostic-atheistic side. I have to admit I am disappointed that subjectivism is all you can come up with though.

I also have given some evidence for subjectivism.

Am I asking too much of reality? All I want is a meaning for my being brought squalling from entropy on October 7th, 1969, 0145 EST, a meaning for the universe in which that happened coming to be. Is that so much to ask?

Yes it is . Assume that in some way, it was proven to you that there is no God, no reason, no nothing. Just a one in a gazillionbillion chance this earth is there, and you happen to be on it.
You would be disappointed, I think. If there is no reason, it is very very hard to chew it is not there. There must be a reason! But there is no reason.
But people do not want that! People want a reason! So they invent one: a subjective reason.

I can see now why so many people are willing to embrace subjectivism, it is a lot easier than asking oneself the really hard questions.

I do not embrace subjectivism.
But it is the only logical explination!
As I said before: People have so many completely different purposes in life, that it MUST be subjective!

And, is it easier? Am I avoiding the really hard questions? Or did I succeed to withstand the toughest challanges of all: Accepting there is no objective reason!

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Suppose there are both an externally-imposed purpose, and a personal purpose to your life. The personal purpose is the important one. The other is yours to accept or reject, and it's not clear why you should accept it.

I'd stand your last idea on its head. Rather than the "subjective" purpose hiding meaninglessness, the "objective" one (if there is one) hides the meaningfulness of the personal purpose.

Much as I despise Keanu Reeves and his vapidity, all I can say to this is...

"Whoa."

You may have something there... I need to think. [Mullmode]

 

[Gothmog]

Am I asking too much of reality? All I want is a meaning for my being brought squalling from entropy on October 7th, 1969, 0145 EST, a meaning for the universe in which that happened coming to be. Is that so much to ask?

It wouldn't seem so would it? But alas we have no help in this regard.

I can see now why so many people are willing to embrace subjectivism, it is a lot easier than asking oneself the really hard questions.

Or it can bring meaning to your life while you still dwell on those questions for which there are no answers forthcoming. I've asked and asked, and read about others who have asked, and talked to others who still ask, and am no closer to an answer. It seems that I wont find one in this lifetime, luckily I don't need one to have meaning in my life.

How do you escape subjectivism? How do you escape the flesh? How can you do more than look inside for answers to the 'why'?

I don't know and I don't believe anyone else does either.

 

[Ayatollah So]

I can see now why so many people are willing to embrace subjectivism, it is a lot easier than asking oneself the really hard questions.

I believe that meaning and purpose are variable from person to person, but are not exhausted by whatever a given person happens to believe. That's why I use the word "personal" rather than "subjective". I think that value is discovered, not invented ex nihilo, and that there are plenty of really hard questions worth asking. Individual differences just make them a little harder to answer.

 

[Birdjaguar]

It wouldn't seem so would it? But alas we have no help in this regard.

Or it can bring meaning to your life while you still dwell on those questions for which there are no answers forthcoming. I've asked and asked, and read about others who have asked, and talked to others who still ask, and am no closer to an answer. It seems that I wont find one in this lifetime, luckily I don't need one to have meaning in my life.

How do you escape subjectivism? How do you escape the flesh? How can you do more than look inside for answers to the 'why'?

I don't know and I don't believe anyone else does either.

There's an old joke about a preacher who is caught in a flood and when the sheriff comes by and tells him to evacuate the church the reacher refuses and says god will provide. The water rises higher and the preacher moves to roof. A rescue boat comes by and the preacher refuses to get in saying god will provide. Finally as the church begins to wash off its foundation a helicopter tries to get the preacher to leave. He refuses again. The church washes away and the preacher dies.
In heaven when brought before god the preacher asks why god didn't save him. And god says "I tried. I sent a sheriff, a boat and a helicopter."

We want clear cut, big ticket answers that reinforce our faith. I'm not sure why we haven't learned that those don't come very often and we mostly are left with only moments of clarity that can pass quickly.

To escape the flesh you need to become a mystic. To lose yourself in god and leave the world behind. Pretty tough to do. You'd have to give up civ and OT and all the good stuff.

If you are going to believe in a god who is active in the world, why wouldn't he be active through the every day stuff? If the world is important enough to have been created, it seems a little silly for god to show himself by acting outside the laws of the world he put such importance on. He might be right close by.

 

[anarres]

FL2, I find the question of "Why?" amazingly interesting, but unlike you (and many others) I seem happy knowing I will never know.

Without wanting to get OT, I think this is a common belief amongst many agnostics. I guess if you are not religous you have to just accept that you don't know many things, including "Why".

Growing up as an athiest I spent many nights as a teenager on acid wondering about these things, I guess you missed out on that. I can't say you missed much though, apart from realising that whatever the "real" answer all we can do is make up our own reasons for existing.