Why aren't the Jews a playable civilisation in Civ games?

[brucedecatz]

It is strange that the player can found Judaism but not able to play as the Jews.

imo they have as much right to claim a place as the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, or the Chinese. And we do not have lack of leaders to choose from (too many of them in the Bible alone)

IS a war between the Jews and the Germans or the Arabs too contentious a game concept so the developers try to avoid the issue altogether by denying them a place?

Apologise if someone has already raised the issue. But would like to see them in Civ V. Financial will definitely be a trait, maybe creative as well?

 

[eewallace]

Good question. It would, at least, make for some nice scenarios...versus Romans, versus Egypt, etc.

 

[Lexicus]

Well, the Jews aren't a civilization. Judaism is a religion.

You are thinking of the Hebrews.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

They aren't a race of people, and the Caananites never had a great empire. Also, the Israelis commit war crimes on a weekly basis, then cry about Hitler when anyone mentions it.
AI behavior would be similar to Tokugawa, outside cultures being held in contempt, dislikes open borders and trade with the outside world. So you could just play as Japan and rename the cities and UU in whatever file holds that information.

 

[AfterShafter]

They're a bit of an odd case historically. The only time they've ever really had a country of their own is quite recent, and they're bit players on the world stage at this point. I know there are other questionable choices in game though, so it's not like including questionable civs is without precedent.

 

[brucedecatz]

I think the Hebrews are Jews in the same way that the Chinese under Qin Shi Huang are Chinese. The Hebrews may have been a minor civilisation, and their nation destroyed, but their culture persisted and the Jews are distinct. If something as brief as the Holy Roman Empire can hold a place, I see no reason why the Jews/Hebrews can't.

 

[AfterShafter]

They aren't a race of people, and the Caananites never had a great empire. Also, the Israelis commit war crimes on a weekly basis, then cry about Hitler when anyone mentions it.

A) there are several groups in game which aren't a single race of people (IE - Romans and Holy Romans spring to mind immediately), B) tons of groups in this game have committed war crimes, crimes against humanity, etc etc etc. Neither a lack of racial unification nor a notable lack of moral character disqualifies a group from being in game.

I'd be quite happy never seeing them in the game, but... There are some sketchy choices in game already. But if they include them in next patch and give them Pro/Org there's going to be hell to pay

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

Yeah I know alot of the civs in the game have done horrible things, but the Israelis were commiting war crimes like, last year. Remember that war with Lebanon? Bombing out supermarkets and water towers and when people loaded their families into vans to flee they shot them dead with rockets from helicoptors. They blew up a UN watch tower, and used cluster bombs on civilians.
I am a Palestinian sympathizer, and I don't care who knows it.

Yeah I agree, they should not be in the game.

 

[r_rolo1]

Well, the Jews aren't a civilization. Judaism is a religion.

You are thinking of the Hebrews.

QFT

Hebrews could deserve a spot, but only after some other far better candidates: Congo, Hitites, Moors or Berbers, Assyrian, Schytians, Nubians, benim , Monomotapa,.....

 

[AfterShafter]

Yeah I know alot of the civs in the game have done horrible things, but the Israelis were commiting war crimes like, last year. Remember that war with Lebanon? Bombing out supermarkets and water towers and when people loaded their families into vans to flee they shot them dead with rockets from helicoptors. They blew up a UN watch tower, and used cluster bombs on civilians.
I am a Palestinian sympathizer, and I don't care who knows it.

Yeah I agree, they should not be in the game.

So you find crimes against humanity better when they were committed less time ago?

 

[brucedecatz]

A) there are several groups in game which aren't a single race of people (IE - Romans and Holy Romans spring to mind immediately), B) tons of groups in this game have committed war crimes, crimes against humanity, etc etc etc. Neither a lack of racial unification nor a notable lack of moral character disqualifies a group from being in game.

I'd be quite happy never seeing them in the game, but... There are some sketchy choices in game already. But if they include them in next patch and give them Pro/Org there's going to be hell to pay

Pro/Org? I take it to mean that you are not serious, mate If they could not defend their land in ancient times and never held a large empire, why are those two traits appropriate?

Hardest thing is to think of an UU, since much of their weaponry during the middle eastern wars were supplied by the US.

I raised the issue about Judaism because it is quite fitting to play as Hindu India, Buddhist India/Japan, Confucian China/Korea/Japan, but Judaism any country feels slightly, only slightly awkward.

 

[AfterShafter]

He he, they're kind of "protective" now. Small, well trained military with way more "upgrades" than the opposition, focused more on maintaining current land than aggressive expansion... But no, I'm not serious - I just really want that trait combo, and I want it on someone I'm enthusiastic about. The Jews/Hebrews/Israel/whatever just ain't it

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

So you find crimes against humanity better when they were committed less time ago?

It would be more controversial. I mean, they didn't put Pol Pot in as a leader of the Khmer. I am agreeing with you though that they should not be in the game. I know from your other posts that you're a bit on the conservitive side and you're not used to liberals like me agreeing with you. /joke

 

[gregh87]

King Solomon of Israel would be a great fit for phi/ind; King David for cha/cre.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

@Brucedecatz
UU could be Jesus, and there were once large numbers of jews in Africa, so you could be jewish Ethiopia. Chrisianity and Islam have spread over most of Africa nowadays though.

 

[brucedecatz]

UU could be Jesus.

Who can single-handedly convert a civilisation to your state religion, invisible to all units, and travels without need to have open borders moves on lake/sea as well.

 

[kurtkage]

If something as brief as the Holy Roman Empire can hold a place, I see no reason why the Jews/Hebrews can't.

From what I've heard the HRE was not "brief". From wikipedia:

The first Holy Roman Emperor was Otto the Great in 962. The last was Francis II, who abdicated and dissolved the Empire in 1806 during the Napoleonic Wars.

But yea it wasn't really an organized empire... I get your point, but still not sure that Hebrew is a good civ to add. I feel that the existing religion represents historically the Jewish people much better than a civ would.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

Who can single-handedly convert a civilisation to your state religion, invisible to all units, and travels without need to have open borders moves on lake/sea as well.

Lol I dunno about some of those abilities. I wouldn't call being executed "invisible to all units". Maybe if when a great prophet was used for a shrine, apposing religions would declare war to crucify your new heathen god

 

[AfterShafter]

It would be more controversial. I mean, they didn't put Pol Pot in as a leader of the Khmer. I am agreeing with you though that they should not be in the game. I know from your other posts that you're a bit on the conservitive side and you're not used to liberals like me agreeing with you. /joke

I've been voting Canadian Liberal most of my life :| Well, except recently after the Liberal party spent so much time in power that they became complacent and figured they could get away with anything, and started to try and do so... A party that believes it can't be voted out is a dangerous thing, even if it's the one you're generally inclined to support. And it's not that you're agreeing with me that I find off, it's some of the reasons why you agree. If someone were to come in here and say "Yeah, I agree, the Jews shouldn't be in the game because they're subhuman" I'd probably argue with them too.

But anyways, if you think I'm conservative based solely on the fact that I don't think the debate over global warming has been concluded, I'd suggest you examine how indoctrinated into party lines you are. That's a HUGE leap to make, and it's basically substituting my view on one very limited issue for my whole political position.

And, you said it - it's controversial. It's not that they're worse - because they're heads and tails better than several leaders already in the game... It's just that people who quite happily play Stalin or Genghis Khan or Shaka will say "Oh no, Israel? But they're EVIL!"

 

[Willem]

The only time they've ever really had a country of their own is quite recent, ...

That's not true. Israel had been an established nation for hundreds of years until the Romans dismantled it. That's why the modern state was created where it is today, because that was their traditional lands a couple of thousand years ago.

 

[brucedecatz]

I have yet to hear from a Jewish player speaking on the issue: where are you? maybe the lack of a Jewish civilisation puts them off from playing the game altogether

As a Chinese, I am happy to have my civilisation in the game although I don't always play them. It is interesting to see its traits and the UUs, and muse about them. I love the days in Civ 3 when the Chinese Rider ruled the medieval wars, although that makes me laugh; the Chinese have been run over by mounted troops often, not the other way round. The Cho-kou-nus are okay, and they combine well with the always derided Pro trait, so I do not join the protective-bashing camp.