Why aren't you all Communists?

[red_elk]

If Environmentalists run Canada for 50 years, everybody in the country calls Canada an "Environmentalist" country, and historians write about this period in Canadian history as "Environmentalist Canada"

Then yeah actually yes, that's exactly what I'd conclude. Even if someone in the back stands up and says "Well actually according to the dictionary that's not really true"

The problem is, again, nobody in USSR (and most likely, in Poland too) called these countries "Communist" and that people there lived under Communism.
Building Communist society was an officially declared goal.

The terminology you use (specifically, the term communist countries) was coined in Western side of the Iron Curtain.

 

[warpus]

okay...

That's me answering the question in the thread title. i.e. "Why are you not a communist?"

Definitely not me saying "I am against everything associated with communism". No idea why you're jumping to those sorts of conclusions. Sure, it's easier to argue against someone who is purely in camp A or purely in camp B, but then you'd be arguing against somebody else, not me.

The problem is, again, nobody in USSR (and most likely, in Poland too) called these countries "Communist" and that people there lived under Communism.
Building Communist society was an officially declared goal.

The terminology you use (specifically, the term communist countries) was coined in Western side of the Iron Curtain.

Erm, nope. We've already been through this, don't you remember? Most people in Poland called the entire country and the entire bloc "communist".

I don't know where you are getting this "nobody".

 

[galdre]

That's me answering the question in the thread title. i.e. "Why are you not a communist?"

Definitely not me saying "I am against everything associated with communism". No idea why you're jumping to those sorts of conclusions. Sure, it's easier to argue against someone who is purely in camp A or purely in camp B, but then you'd be arguing against somebody else, not me.

But you saying you are not a communist because of what some people did you called themselves communists!! And since you've been arguing that for ten pages I came to the (natural, I think) conclusion that you were completely against the ideas of communism!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

But you saying you are not a communist because of what some people did you called themselves communists!! And since you've been arguing that for ten pages I came to the (natural, I think) conclusion that you were completely against the ideas of communism!

I give Warpus a pass on this subject because having been directly exposed to the realities of (nominal) communism makes it understandably hard to parse through the ideas of communism. I just appreciate the sincerity of his accounts of his experiences.

 

[red_elk]

Erm, nope. We've already been through this, don't you remember? Most people in Poland called the entire country and the entire bloc "communist".

I don't know where you are getting this "nobody".

We've been through this indeed and you said that people in Poland called the government communist, which entirely makes sense.
But not the country and not society.
I suppose you lived in Canada for too long and simply accepted colloquial terminology used in the West as something used everywhere.

Communists themselves didn't call Polish and Soviet societies as communist, this has to mean something.

 

[warpus]

But you saying you are not a communist because of what some people did you called themselves communists!! And since you've been arguing that for ten pages I came to the (natural, I think) conclusion that you were completely against the ideas of communism!

I have been arguing for 10 freaking pages because people keep arguing with me about it. Maybe next time don't assume stuff that I haven't actually said though?

The OP asked me "Why are you not a communist?". So I explained why. It doesn't mean you can make assumptions about any of my positions on the ideology itself that I haven't explicitly stated. Doing that is sort of dishonest.

But not the country and not society.
I suppose you lived in Canada for too long and simply accepted colloquial terminology used in the West as something used everywhere.

No dude, you're not getting it, every single Polish person I've ever talked to who has lived in Poland during communist days, CALLS IT THAT. AND WAS CALLING IT THAT IN THE 70S AND 80S and whenever

I don't know if this is propaganda they've been feeding you in school or whatever, but what you are saying is 100% wrong.

 

[Lexicus]

Communists should drop the Communist label and figure something else out to call themselves.

 

[red_elk]

No dude, you're not getting it, every single Polish person I've ever talked to who has lived in Poland during communist days, CALLS IT THAT. AND WAS CALLING IT THAT IN THE 70S AND 80S and whenever

I don't know if this is propaganda they've been feeding you in school or whatever, but what you are saying is 100% wrong.

If they called it that, they were mistaken. That's what I'm trying to explain.
I doubt these people really thought they were living in utopian society.

Using term communism to describe Soviet-style socialism is incorrect and confusing.

 

[galdre]

I have been arguing for 10 freaking pages because people keep arguing with me about it. Maybe next time don't assume stuff that I haven't actually said though?

The OP asked me "Why are you not a communist?". So I explained why. It doesn't mean you can make assumptions about any of my positions on the ideology itself that I haven't explicitly stated. Doing that is sort of dishonest.

Yes, and your explanation was that you weren't a communist because of what people who called themselves communists did in Poland. My only point is that your position is illogical. You are the one who equated communist ideology with a Soviet puppet government in Poland, there were no assumptions made on my part.

 

[warpus]

If they called it that, they were mistaken.

Oh yeah okay, every single inhabitant of Poland was just wrong about this. Not to mention all those people in Hungary, Czechia, etc. who say the exact same thing. Sure, okay.

That is the stupidest argument ever. Even HISTORIANS are calling it "Communist Poland".

Next you're going to tell me that I didn't live in a country at all. "It's not a country, it doesn't meet the definition, everybody who thinks it was a country was wrong"

Yes, and your explanation was that you weren't a communist because of what people who called themselves communists did in Poland.

Yes, and how you from that concluded that I am against anything related to communism whatsoever, is beyond me.

 

[galdre]

Yes, and how you from that concluded that I am against anything related to communism whatsoever, is beyond me.

I'll just cut + paste: You are the one who equated communist ideology with a Soviet puppet government in Poland, there were no assumptions made on my part.

 

[warpus]

I'll just cut + paste: You are the one who equated communist ideology with a Soviet puppet government in Poland, there were no assumptions made on my part.

Man..

Okay..

I answered the question of "Why aren't you communist?"

with

"Well, I used to live in a communist country, and then we left, so that's why I'm not a communist. Because we moved to a capitalist country. And not another communist one."

Somehow out of all that you concluded that I hate everything to do with communism. There is your (unneeded) assumption

 

[galdre]

I like endless arguments as much as the next person...

When did I claim you "hate everything to do with communism"?

 

[warpus]

Your response of "communism is bad because of Poland" is discrediting an ideology because of what some people who called themselves communists did.

Let me try to explain this one last time.

"Why don't you eat chocolate cupcakes anymore?"

"Well, I used to work in a store that used to sell them, but then I quit and now I work somewhere else"

"Oh so you think all cupcakes are bad because of that?"

No. Nyet. Nie. Nein.

 

[BvBPL]

Jesus H. Christ, he answered the question. He had a bad personal experience with communism and that’s why he’s not a communist. That’s all there is to it. You wouldn’t harangue someone who didn’t like dogs because she had a bad personal experience with a mutt.

 

[galdre]

Jesus H. Christ, he answered the question. He had a bad personal experience with communism and that’s why he’s not a communist. That’s all there is to it. You wouldn’t harangue someone who didn’t like dogs because she had a bad personal experience with a mutt.

Sure wouldn't, I'm only haranguing him because he keeps claiming I made statements I never made, calling me dishonest, and arguing with everyone who tried to point out that just because someone declares they are X, it doesn't mean they are X.

 

[red_elk]

Oh yeah okay, every single inhabitant of Poland was just wrong about this. Not to mention all those people in Hungary, Czechia, etc. who say the exact same thing. Sure, okay.

Then it's argument of "every single" inhabitant of Poland vs "every single" inhabitant of USSR including communists. Because again, nobody in USSR thought we live in Communism or called USSR communist country.

That is the stupidest argument ever. Even HISTORIANS are calling it "Communist Poland".

Some historians, sure. Usually those who are critical of government of that period and demonstratively reject terminology used in socialist countries.
But even they use it as short form of "Poland ruled by communist government", but not "Poland which successfully created classless society"

 

[red_elk]

"Well, I used to live in a communist country, and then we left, so that's why I'm not a communist. Because we moved to a capitalist country. And not another communist one."

Somehow out of all that you concluded that I hate everything to do with communism. There is your (unneeded) assumption

Let me just quote the part which causes most of unneeded assumptions:

"I lived in a communist country once. It was so bad we actually left everything behind, and risked our livelihoods, and escaped. Half a decade later the country I left rose up and kicked the communists to the curb.
That's why I'm not a communist anymore."

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/why-arent-you-all-communists.610951/#post-14668331

 

[warpus]

Sure wouldn't, I'm only haranguing him because he keeps claiming I made statements I never made, calling me dishonest, and arguing with everyone who tried to point out that just because someone declares they are X, it doesn't mean they are X.

I think you misunderstood my initial disagreement with you, but let's just shake hands and drop that whole part of the conversation, because it is starting to become exhausting

Let me just quote the part which causes most of unneeded assumptions:

"I lived in a communist country once. It was so bad we actually left everything behind, and risked our livelihoods, and escaped. Half a decade later the country I left rose up and kicked the communists to the curb.
That's why I'm not a communist anymore."

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/why-arent-you-all-communists.610951/#post-14668331

Yes, it is well known that I had a horrible time under the Polish communist regime, this is not something I am going to hide. It was not a good time, what do you want me to say?

But you can not use that statement to conclude that I am against communism as a concept. Just because Russians have not managed to figure out how to implement communism without destroying everything in the process doesn't mean that it can't be done.

In fact, if you really looked hard enough you would find posts written by me in which I suggest a system of government in which certain key communist ideals are written into the constitution, while the rest of the country remains democratic and in many ways capitalist. If you are a hardcore communist you will find this contradictory, but all I'm doing is taking the best parts of different ideologies and molding them into what I think would work best.

But even they use it as short form of "Poland ruled by communist government", but not "Poland which successfully created classless society"

Leave it to a Russian to with a straight face claim that Poland was at no time communist, while at the same time making a genuinely funny joke about the situation.

We have successfully created a classless society in Poland, it's called drink Vodka until you don't know which class you're in, it happens every weekend.

 

[cardgame]

But you can not use that statement to conclude that I am against communism as a concept.

Well it sure as hell sounds like that's what you are saying.