Why did God create atheists?

[Quasar1011]

If God knows the choices, how exactly are those choices a product of free will? If God knows them, they are already determined, therefor free will is an ilusion.

Have you ever watched a DVD or video a 2nd time? You knew the outcome, correct? But did you control the outcome? No. This is a sample of what it is like to have an advantage in time. Knowing the choices that are made, because you've already seen them, does not necessarily mean you had an input into those choices.

 

[vbraun]

Maybe he created himself.

You'll never fully understand the nature of God, by definition understanding him is beyond us.

Sure we can try. A long time ago it could be said, "We will never no the nature of the stars, by definition understanding them is beyond us" (Well maybe not so formal)

I need a better answer then that.

 

[ironduck]

Two things: First, what is so wrong about people going to hell if they deserve it, and if they are truly sinners?

Do you really mean this?

And, what constitutes a sinner that 'deserves' it to you? How great must the 'sin' be before the person will go to hell?

 

[Elrohir]

Sure we can try. A long time ago it could be said, "We will never no the nature of the stars, by definition understanding them is beyond us" (Well maybe not so formal)

I need a better answer then that.

I didn't say you couldn't try, just that you won't succeed.

 

[vbraun]

I didn't say you couldn't try, just that you won't succeed.

I'm still waiting for a better answer. By saying our brains are to small to figure that out is just a way of dodging the question.

 

[Elrohir]

I'm still waiting for a better answer. By saying our brains are to small to figure that out is just a way of dodging the question.

No it's not. It's saying that you will at best get only a partial answer.

 

[ironduck]

I didn't say you couldn't try, just that you won't succeed.

How can *you* know that?

Who made up *your* definition of who can know and cannot know about 'god'?

 

[vbraun]

No it's not. It's saying that you will at best get only a partial answer.

Then tell me part of the answer.

 

[cgannon64]

And, what constitutes a sinner that 'deserves' it to you? How great must the 'sin' be before the person will go to hell?

The sin must be great enough that it occludes their sight of God; it must break their relationship with Him.

 

[Quasar1011]

Surely God, being all-knowing, knew Lucifer would do this (in the same way he knew that Jesus would end up crucified), so I don't see how this helps. Either God knowingly created evil, or there are limits to God's power.

There are no limits to God's power. God can do anything He wants. However, there are some things He does not want to do. And one of those things is create beings "in His image", without giving them free will.

May I remind you that angels were also created with free will. They had audience with God, and lived in His presence. But after the covering cherub (Lucifer) rebelled, 1/3 of the angels rebelled as well, to follow Lucifer (who then became Satan).

What is striking about free will on Earth, is that humans can exercise their free will to go along with God's plan, or to go against it. He will not force any choices on humans. But He created Earth, so that a race of beings could operate by faith (not seeing Him), and still choose to love Him.

God did not create evil, but He did allow evil. The bottom line is, He has solved the problem of evil. We are simply waiting for the full implementation of His plan!

 

[ironduck]

The sin must be great enough that it occludes their sight of God; it must break their relationship with Him.

But you said they 'deserve' it. So you must have some kind of opinion of what it takes to deserve such a thing. Otherwise you couldn't say that people would deserve going to hell, if you have no idea what it takes for them to go there.

Just saying it breaks people's relationship with 'god' doesn't tell me anything. I've never felt a connection with any god, does that mean I have no relationship with such a god and will go to hell?

 

[Elrohir]

Then tell me part of the answer.

You're asking me to explain God to you? That's a very big question, and one that has been debated for millenia.

 

[Narz]

Two things: First, what is so wrong about people going to hell if they deserve it, and if they are truly sinners? And secondly, even if every single person who ever existed went to hell, save one, isn't it all worth it so that one person might be saved? Are you really going to deny the one person salvation so that everyone else can avoid their deserved punishment?

Who deserves hell? Or better question? Why would got create a world where people became so desperate that they needed to sin in order to get by (and therefore ended up in hell)? It's like he built a Civ map with only enough resources for one Civ to flourish and then had to nerve to get mad when the Civs would fight for land.

Why do millions need to suffer eternally for one to be saved? Would it be worth it??? Hell no! The question is : why do we need to be "saved" anyway? Do birds, bees, tiger and cimpanzees need to be "saved"? What's wrong with just living life and being happy?

 

[ironduck]

The bottom line is, He has solved the problem of evil. We are simply waiting for the full implementation of His plan!

If 'he' is all-powerful 'he' already 'solved' the 'problem' of evil in the beginning, since there was never a 'problem' to him in the first place. Why does he then need a 'plan' to solve a non-existing problem?

 

[Elrohir]

Who deserves hell? Or better question? Why would got create a world where people became so desperate that they needed to sin in order to get by (and therefore ended up in hell)? It's like he built a Civ map with only enough resources for one Civ to flourish and then had to nerve to get mad when the Civs would fight for land.

Why do millions need to suffer eternally for one to be saved? Would it be worth it??? Hell no! The question is : why do we need to be "saved" anyway? Do birds, bees, tiger and cimpanzees need to be "saved"? What's wrong with just living life and being happy?

Everyone deserves hell. You, me, Johnny Depp, whoever. We're all imperfect and flawed humans who need to be saved by Christ.

They don't. Everyone could choose God, but they don't.

 

[Narz]

Have you ever watched a DVD or video a 2nd time? You knew the outcome, correct? But did you control the outcome? No. This is a sample of what it is like to have an advantage in time. Knowing the choices that are made, because you've already seen them, does not necessarily mean you had an input into those choices.

Interesting theory. So basically what you're saying is that everything is already predestined. The movie is playing (so to speak) and no one can change the storyline (including God). So basically God only ever had power in the very beginning when he set the game in motion (kind of like I had when I created the cast for my NarzWarz simulation) and now he is just an innocent bystander watching his drama unfold, even more powerless to change things than the average Joe (because at least we have free will)? Right.

Or can God only change things thru Jesus? That would make sense, make the game a little more fun and challenging for him, that he could only influence the game thru his son, who to make things more complicated would also have free will. Interesting... Hmmm, wait my theory doesn't work because God did do some interfering back in the old testament (smiteing and stuff).

 

[Narz]

Everyone deserves hell. You, me, Johnny Depp, whoever. We're all imperfect and flawed humans who need to be saved by Christ.

They don't. Everyone could choose God, but they don't.

Maybe cause he's so bitter. If a girl told me "If you don't date me I will torture you for all eternity" I wouldn't be too enamored with her either.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Who deserves hell? Or better question? Why would got create a world where people became so desperate that they needed to sin in order to get by (and therefore ended up in hell)? It's like he built a Civ map with only enough resources for one Civ to flourish and then had to nerve to get mad when the Civs would fight for land.

Why do millions need to suffer eternally for one to be saved? Would it be worth it??? Hell no! The question is : why do we need to be "saved" anyway? Do birds, bees, tiger and cimpanzees need to be "saved"? What's wrong with just living life and being happy?

I thought I had answered the question of why god allows suffering elsewhere.

other animals are not "sentient" we humans are.

 

[vbraun]

You're asking me to explain God to you? That's a very big question, and one that has been debated for millenia.

My question was "Who created God?"

And I only asked for part of the answer. Any size will do.

 

[Quasar1011]

If 'he' is all-powerful 'he' already 'solved' the 'problem' of evil in the beginning, since there was never a 'problem' to him in the first place. Why does he then need a 'plan' to solve a non-existing problem?

It is interesting how your double-speak actually brings out a Biblical truth. Yes, from God's perspective (outside of time), the problem of evil has already been solved. From our perspective (along our universe's timeline), it has not. We are still trying to get from point A (the introduction of evil) to point B (evil's final demise). Most of us cannot see or fathom point B, but it is there- along our timeline, in the future. We are living in God's plan to resolve this question. But, to say the problem of evil does not exist... well, buddy, look at the world around you!