Why did my early rush fail? (BTS noble)

[guermantes]

Hi,
I play on Noble and have never really performed an early rush on a neighbor. I read Sisiutil's guide on the subject and thought I should try it out with Huayna Capac.

I thought I got a fairly good start for thew purpose of trying out an early rush, but didn't get long into the game, just 2880 BC, before I got the impression that I had lost my window of opportunity.

Now, I am not very good at analyzing what I could have done differently and if I should try to describe it with words it would probably be even messier.
Does anyone want to help me with that by having a look at my game?

I include the save from 2880 BC when I abandoned the early rush effort. I also include the initial 4000 BC save file in case anyone wants to play it out them selves.
The saves were created with latest BUG/BULL installed for single player and with BlueMarble

Thanks!
/g

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Well first off HC is much better on Monarch+ where the AI starts with Archers, as his unit gets a bonus versus Archers. Second off the start isn't a good start for QQ rushing. Thirdly your build, and tech order was wrong.

 

[guermantes]

Ok, cool. I didn't get one thing right!

Spoiler :

1) But if I wanted to rush and whip out Quechas (whipping would be a must for a rush, no?) didn't I need that workboat?
2) By tech, do you mean I should have beelined for bronze to get chopping right away?

 

[lymond]

Q rushes are a special type of rush that I don't categorize as "early rush". Also, they are not very good below "Monarch" as Z mentioned, other than the fact that on Noble you can usually take out 1 or 2 AIs with just warriors.

So, in other words, what you are practicing here is not what you intended nor have you done anything that remotely resembles a Noble warrior rush.

Mining>BW is the better start here with a worker first, unless you just start with building several Qs and go steal some workers.

Lastly, that is one of the most bizarrely bad starts that I've seen in quite some time.

 

[guermantes]

Ok,
Thanks both of you. I'll give it another shot with a Mining civ.

 

[barbertje]

I would say that a quecha rush is by far the best way to handle this game. You just need to actually build quecha's.
If you just settle on the plains hill, and work maximum hammers, you can do this:

Spoiler :

A bit of overkill.

Now you might say I'm cheating here, because there's no way to know that an AI like pacal is there, and that taking him out is such high priority. Only when I see his borders, I can see that I'm likely to be cut off on an extremely crappy peninsula, wich happened on turn 7.
A normal start would start with a worker. If you build a worker and then quecha's, with the help of some chops, you can do this:

Spoiler :

4 quecha's were killed by the 2 warriors in the hill city with 40% culture, but
3 quecha's survived. Someone like Pacal won't get to bronzeworking on Noble, so he can't whip defenders, even if I have to plod through his culture for 3 turns.

 

[Pengu]

Well, picking a fight vs Pacal who has a holy city and on a hill means he gets huge defense bonuses vs your quechas. And vs warriors you get no bonuses whatsoever from quechas. Just to try I attacked with 5 quechas and killed 0 warriors...
On noble it is easier to just wait until you get axes or swords and then it is easy pickings.

 

[Gumbolt]

Probably easier to do a chariot rush on that save. I agree on the start being terrible. You'd need a boat to find good land.

 

[barbertje]

Well, picking a fight vs Pacal who has a holy city and on a hill means he gets huge defense bonuses vs your quechas. And vs warriors you get no bonuses whatsoever from quechas. Just to try I attacked with 5 quechas and killed 0 warriors...
On noble it is easier to just wait until you get axes or swords and then it is easy pickings.

When did you attack? and how many warriors where there? 5 vs 1 with a strength of 2.2 vs 4.3 is almost impossible to lose. I just tried 10 5vs1 battles with slightly worse odds (2 vs 4 strength) and won all of them, and only needed the last attacker once. I lost 2.2 attackers for each battle on average, so If you have 5 quecha's vs 2 warriors with 115% defense (25% city + 25% hill + 25%fortify + 40%), you'll most likely lose 4 and kill only one warrior, and it's not rare to not kill anything.
If you move in with 5 ASAP, pacal shouldn't have a second warrior tough.

 

[Gumbolt]

If you attack with chariots you could move in and attack with pretty good odds of winning on first attack.

You are too obsessed on Quelchas when they have no bonus vs warriors. Build a worker. Get your workboats and pasture complete. Then chop 4-5 chariots.

The Ai on Noble takes forever to build a second city.

 

[pigswill]

Whizzed through this. Captured Mutal 2720, attacked with 7Qs v 2 warriors, lost first 5 but last 2 won at 90+odds. Captured Rome 1720, 12 Qs v archer, 3 warriors. Lost 6 Qs. Warrior rush you're probably looking at 3:1 odds minimum for success.

 

[blunderwonder]

I didnt play the save but i never early rush unless theyre very close to me, either way i usally go for bw/iw and whip/chop for axemen and swordsmen if i rush. Doestn take long if you start with mining.

I think early rush success usually depends alot on location/timing and even then sometimes i feel like i just wasted time clearing out land i cant use because CoL isnt available for another 30-40 turns or whatever

 

[iggymnrr]

I thought I got a fairly good start for thew purpose of trying out an early rush, but didn't get long into the game, just 2880 BC, before I got the impression that I had lost my window of opportunity.

I might say the opposite. It takes too long for the window of opportunity to open up. Mental note to self: never rush with 1-move units on this level. (Prince/noble and below.) If you want to try a rush with a fine UU, try Egypt.

 

[guermantes]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone! Glad to see there are different ways of doing this. That is indeed what I like about this game.

 

[NetGear]

I might say the opposite. It takes too long for the window of opportunity to open up. Mental note to self: never rush with 1-move units on this level. (Prince/noble and below.) If you want to try a rush with a fine UU, try Egypt.

Warrior rush should work no problem on prince and below. That's basically what quechas are when not fighting archers. I think it's just a case of either 1) he didn't commit to rushing 2) chose wrong target or mix of both.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

If you're playing below Monarch then you don't need quechua's, any warrior rush will work. You just need around 3 to 1 numbers to be safe. Be wary of hills + high culture, but even then it's just a matter of numbers.

If you're doing this type of rush you should not be building workboats or anything else until you have 6+ warriors out.

 

[pigswill]

@guermantes. I suspect the reason your quecha rush failed is that you didn't commit to it from T1.

 

[barbertje]

@guermantes. I suspect the reason your quecha rush failed is that you didn't commit to it from T1.

If you really need to commit from T1, there would be no quecha rushes at all in optimally played games. How would you know there's a target at all, and how far away it is, and how good the land around you and your target is?
Luckily, there is time enough to build a worker and chop a few forests and send in 7 quecha's against 2 warriors.

 

[iggymnrr]

Warrior rush should work no problem on prince and below. That's basically what quechas are when not fighting archers. I think it's just a case of either 1) he didn't commit to rushing 2) chose wrong target or mix of both.

I'm not planning on stopping after only 1 civ.