Why didn't I ever hear anything about ID in Europe?

[Winner]

Please, Please pretty Please with sugar on top, don't turn this into another ID/evolution debate. It's pointless.
I want to know why there is no such debate in Europe and the rest of the world? The only people who seriously believe in some sort of "scientific"-Creationism(don't know how to call it) are AFAIK some Muslims in Turkey and South-East Asia, some orthodox Jews and some Americans.
I didn't even know that there were people in Western countries who don't believe in the Theory of Evolution. I thought that debate belonged to the 19th century before I started visiting American Forums like this one.

Yes, I have to agree with you, I were also shocked by the extent of fundamentalism in the US when I started posting here or on other foreign forums.

Guess this is because different history of Europe and the America since they gained an independence. The oppressed people from Europe (often religious zealots) emigrated to the America and created a strong basis for the future fundamentalism. America also (aside from the Civil war) never experienced so many religious and ideological wars, so many casaulties and so much destruction. WW1 alone must have been very destructive for European Christianity. During the Cold war, the religion definitely lost it's strong position and it's influence was greatly reduced. On the Eastern side of Iron curtain, religion was illegal and suppressed.

Nowadays, truly devoted christians form just a very small minority of believers. Most consider themselves christians just because they feel they believe in something and don't know, what it is. Their parents have told them it is the God and teached them basics of religion, so they are now Catholics (common practice where I live). But they surely doesn't have the religion on the first place in their lives.

 

[wit>trope]

None at all??? (I've never read the French or German "constitutions", are you saying they're more religiously oriented?)

Anyway, if, by any chance, you've read the U.S. constitution (which I very strongly doubt), you'd of course know that there are no references to God or any diety whatsoever. The closest you could come is "in the year of our lord..." and that was done simply because that is the proper way of formally mentioning the date. The fact God isn't mentioned at all in the US constitution is quite intentional... as is said in the opening sentence, it is a government of the people. Created by the people, meant to govern the people of the United States.

The words "of the people, by the people, for the people" were uttered by Abraham Lincoln who invoked God with devotion throughout his public life, including his presidency such as in his second inaugural speech:

Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has his own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope--fervently do we pray--that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether"

With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan--to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations.

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/inaug2.htm

The words "in the year of our Lord" are not actually a mere formality -- that is just your supposition. The words "in the year of our Lord" express also devotion to our Lord, even if it is a phrase that is oft used ("I love you" is a phrase that is oft used but that does not make it less of an expression of devotion)

While the Constitution does not in besides that case, explicitly refer to God, God is implicitly referred to when it talks about rights as pre-existing human law (this is mostly in the Bill of Rights, which technically is not part of the original Constitution).

In any case, the Declaration of Independence, which is a complement to the Constitution and a founding document of the United States, explicitly refers to God. The Declaration, which many US school children are required to memorize says among other things "all men are created equal and endowed with their Creator with certain inalienable rights"

 

[FearlessLeader2]

At a guess I'd say because the RCC has poisoned the attitude of Europeans toward God. There is plenty of evidence to support that, just look at most of the European posters comments in almost any thread with any sort of religious or moral topic.

When an open hypocrite operates in an area for that long, anything they say is eventually reduced in their audience's eys to meaninglessness. Even the true parts.

Oh, yeah... familiarity breeds contempt. That's a lot easier to say.

 

[Fischfang]

At a guess I'd say because the RCC has poisoned the attitude of Europeans toward God. There is plenty of evidence to support that, just look at most of the European posters comments in almost any thread with any sort of religious or moral topic.

When an open hypocrite operates in an area for that long, anything they say is eventually reduced in their audience's eys to meaninglessness. Even the true parts.

Oh, yeah... familiarity breeds contempt. That's a lot easier to say.

What kind of influece has the catholic church e.g. in Sweden or the UK? There are more catholics in the USA.

 

[Masquerouge]

At a guess I'd say because the RCC has poisoned the attitude of Europeans toward God. There is plenty of evidence to support that, just look at most of the European posters comments in almost any thread with any sort of religious or moral topic.

Most European posters are from Germany, the UK and Scandinavia, hardly Catholic countries...

 

[The Last Conformist]

A number of my ancestors died in the name of fighting the RCC ...

 

[Smidlee]

It's true that the YEC (not necessary fundamentalist) groups kept the debate going about evolution here in the USA. Most public schools in the 70's and 80's mostly taught evolution with maybe
just a few statement about creation. Yet even though Darwinism was the dominate in science for decades the percent of Americans who believe in creation remain unchanged. So the Darwinists decide to go to the Superme Court involved to bully creation out of the science class once and for all. They seems to have forgotten what Isaac Newton said "For every action there's a equal and oppiside reaction."
While Darwinist put creation on trial guess who turn around a few years and put "Darwin on Trial" ? You guess it; a lawyer named Phillip E. Johnson. He knew Darwinist elites use the law to remove any idea of creation in the classroom while Darwinism itself was having a lot of trouble with modern science. Thus, evolution became a science dogma. This began the "Intelligent Design" movement. Also even though Darwinism removed creation out of the classroom the percent of people in America who believes in creation still remains the same. So it was Darwinist using the courts to push their agenda ulimately lead to the beginning of ID.

 

[Fischfang]

It's true that the YEC (not necessary fundamentalist) groups kept the debate going about evolution here in the USA. Most public schools in the 70's and 80's mostly taught evolution with maybe
just a few statement about creation. Yet even though Darwinism was the dominate in science for decades the percent of Americans who believe in creation remain unchanged. So the Darwinists decide to go to the Superme Court involved to bully creation out of the science class once and for all. They seems to have forgotten what Isaac Newton said "For every action there's a equal and oppiside reaction."
While Darwinist put creation on trial guess who turn around a few years and put "Darwin on Trial" ? You guess it; a lawyer named Phillip E. Johnson. He knew Darwinist elites use the law to remove any idea of creation in the classroom while Darwinism itself was having a lot of trouble with modern science. Thus, evolution became a science dogma. This began the "Intelligent Design" movement. Also even though Darwinism removed creation out of the classroom the percent of people in America who believes in creation still remains the same. So it was Darwinist using the courts to push their agenda ulimately lead to the beginning of ID.

But why the high percentage of people believing in creationism? Why not in Europe?

 

[Smidlee]

But why the high percentage of people believing in creationism? Why not in Europe?

That was the question National Geographic asked? They realize this percent is higher than bible literalist. So their conclusion was " the main sources of information from which most Americans have drawn their awareness of this subject, it seems, are haphazard ones at best: cultural osmosis,newpaper and magizine references, half-baked nature docmentaries on the tube, and hearsay."
In another words according to them , many Americans rejects evolution because what they learn about evolution comes from haphazard {National Geographic} magazine articles and the half-baked {National Geographic} TV shows.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

TLC, Masquerogue, and fischfang:

Do you even realise that you are making my point for me?

 

[cgannon64]

A number of my ancestors died in the name of fighting the RCC ...

How far back, and why?

A real war against the Catholic Church in - where are you? the great socialist northern section of Europe, no? - seems so antiquated.

 

[Fischfang]

At a guess I'd say because the RCC has poisoned the attitude of Europeans toward God. There is plenty of evidence to support that, just look at most of the European posters comments in almost any thread with any sort of religious or moral topic.

When an open hypocrite operates in an area for that long, anything they say is eventually reduced in their audience's eys to meaninglessness. Even the true parts.

Oh, yeah... familiarity breeds contempt. That's a lot easier to say.

TLC, Masquerogue, and fischfang:

Do you even realise that you are making my point for me?

Okay, maybe I misunderstood you.
Is that your Point? If not, please clarify your position.
"Europeans have witnessed how horrible the catholic church is. That's why both catholics and protestants in Europe are hostile towards religion/god in general."
If it is, there are a few thinks that I don't understand:
1. Why is Sweden with 75% protestants and 1.6% catholics more influenced by the catholic church than the USA with 56% protestants and 25% catholics?
2. The Catholic church has accepted evolution a very long time ago, so being Anti-RCC/Religion doesn't have anything to do anymore with being Anti-Evolution
3. There are many Europeans who practice their religion, still very few(so few that I've never really heard of them) really question evolution
4. How did I make a point for you. No, I honestly don't realise it. Please explain

 

[Babbler]

How far back, and why?

A real war against the Catholic Church in - where are you? the great socialist northern section of Europe, no? - seems so antiquated.

I believe the Thirty Years War, back ~400 year. Socialist was not invented, or at least not in its modern form.

 

[Fischfang]

I believe the Thirty Years War, back ~400 year. Socialist was not invented, or at least not in its modern form.

Well I don't believe there is a living European (including those who emigrated to the USA) who hasn't lost a ancestor in the thirty years war. Considering the facts that 350 years in the past, everyone has thousands of ancestors and that in the thirty years war the european population shrunk by 33%.

 

[The Last Conformist]

TLC, Masquerogue, and fischfang:

Do you even realise that you are making my point for me?

Secularization in Sweden didn't set in until long after the RCC had lost all influence here. When it did, it was more thorough than in the Catholic bits of Europe. Same goes for most of Protestant Europe. This proves the RCC is responsible for the more negative attitude to Christianity in Europe compared to America.

As far as Europe is concerned, Catholicism has succeeded better than Protestantism at fending of secularization and irreligiosity. To conclude from this that the RCC has poisoned Europeans' attitude towards God is nothing short of perverse.

 

[The Last Conformist]

How far back, and why?

As others have guessed, in the 30 Years War (which as far as Sweden is concerned lasted 1630-48). I do not know why they enlisted in the army, but monetary rewards or coercion seems the likeliest reasons.

 

[Verbose]

The words "in the year of our Lord" are not actually a mere formality -- that is just your supposition. The words "in the year of our Lord" express also devotion to our Lord

Exactly. There are many was to make a revolution. The French Jacobins did away with the Christian calender altogther making 1789 "year 1".

 

[The Last Conformist]

By cierdan's logic, I honour Odin, because I use the day-name "Wednesday".

 

[wit>trope]

TLC, I don't think you got my logic at all and you are attacking a strawman. My logic was that anno domini CAN express devotion. Whether someone who uses the phrase DOES express devotion to our Lord or not will OBVIOUSLY depend on his INTENTION. The writers of the constitution DID intend to express devotion by writing that and so it DOES express devotion in that case. The founding fathers also clearly expressed devotion to God in the Declaration of Independence where God is referred to as our Creator, the source of certain inalienable rights, and so forth (this is also reflected in the Constitution where certain rights are talked about as pre-existing human law)

 

[wit>trope]

Exactly. There are many was to make a revolution. The French Jacobins did away with the Christian calender altogther making 1789 "year 1".

Yes, and also now days, unfortunately, secularist and politically correct historians use C.E. and B.C.E. (referring to Common Era and Before Common Era instead of Christian Era, etc.) to strip the dating of Christian references ... which is kind of stupid since the source of the dating convention remains the same, a possible error of a monk notwithstanding.