Why do Christians believe Jews won't be saved?
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The Corinthians quote lays out the steps in God's plan for the end of all things. "Subjected" means joined to God so that at the end, God is all in all.
_random_
Jewel Runner
The early Church Fathers were Greek-speaking, and the Scripture of the Greek speaking world was the Septuagint, which included Maccabees. I defy you to find one Christian writer from prior to the Reformation who would deny the canonocity of Maccabees. On the issue of purgatory, there's no direct scriptural support for it, but the sacrifices on behalf of the dead in Maccabees and the parable of the two debtors are often used to support the doctrine.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
The sacrifices are a picture of what the coming Messiah was going to do. The sacrifices pictured that you needed some one to pay for your sins, since you cannot do it alone. It has always been believe that saves you not some animals sacrifice. Right from Abraham when it was said of him "He believed God, and he counted it to him for righteousness." Genesis 15:6. It has always been faith that God rewards, not the sacrifices. If the sacrifices were not acceptable then it was making a mockery of God, which he tells the people in Malachi about how they were steal from God, by bring inferior sacrifices.
@Birdjaguar, you have to be in Christ, to be part of this resurrection. The contrast is clear between the fact that Adam brought death and Jesus brought life, but only to those who believe on his name. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
This resurrection is only for those who have trusted in Christ, but he did pave way for everyone to be resurrected, since there are two resurrections mentioned. One reserved for the just and one for the unjust.
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Revelation 20 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Lone Wolf
Deity
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No, "subjected" means that the Angry God will judge you and place the majority of people to Hell, to wailing and gnashing of teeth
Don't water down True Christianity, the healthy religion of fire and brimstone with your sickly waif fluffy concepts
The thread title is misleading in that it makes out that that is what all Christians actually believe. This is not the case on a couple of levels. Birdjaguar and Fr8monkey have pointed out one of those levels through biblical evidence. The other one would be the assumption that all Christians believe in salvation in the first place.
(My apologies in advance to Lone Wolf for being a pinko hippy liberal Christian).
(My apologies in advance to Lone Wolf for being a pinko hippy liberal Christian).
Whiskey_Lord
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<snip>
Moving my post to another thread where it's more relevant.
Moving my post to another thread where it's more relevant.
Since when are only those who are strictly Orthodox Jewish the only real Jews? If you can be an atheist and still be Jewish, then surely you can be Christian and be Jewish. Even if Christian doctrine on salvation being possible only through Christ, and that this salvation is only available in this life, is true then it's still false to say that "Jews won't be saved." Because quite reasonably, some will, and have been, according to pretty much all Christians. In short: Some will, some won't.
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
Well then what does 2 Maccabees 12:46 mean:
If they go immediately to Heaven or Hell then how can one atone for the dead?
1 Peter 1:6-7
Can't be the fires of Hell for those flames torment not purify
What about 1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Can't be the fires of Hell for those flames torment not purify
Explain those please.
(Correct me if I'm wrong) The Targum says the crushing of the serpent will happen in the days of the MessiahGenesis 3:15 says, "I will put enmity between you & the woman, and between your offspring & her offspring. He will pound your head & you will bite his heel."
Doesn't look much like a messianic prophesy.
2 Maccabees 12:46, 1 Peter 1:6-7, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15
2 Maccabees 12:46 is what you are looking forIt's described in the book of Maccabees (I don't remember now which one), but Protestants reject that book as part of the canon, which is another debate entirely.
If you are going to claim stuff make sure you have justification
There is a difference between ethnic Jew and religious Jew
please take himI see a future atheist in the making.
Shekwan
Kim Chi Quaffing Celt
When I read this thread my reaction was, "Jesus Christ..."
I guess that'll do as an answer too.
I guess that'll do as an answer too.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
@civ king. Quite simply you cannot work for your salvation and the 1 Corinthians 3 passage is talking about people's works, and they are tried under fire to see what they are made out of. Our salvation is secure in Christ once you have trusted him.
No, "subjected" means that the Angry God will judge you and place the majority of people to Hell, to wailing and gnashing of teeth
It appears you don't understand the last verse or were just being sarcastic.
But you have missed my larger point: by quoting scripture one can find a wide variety of very different answers to the question of salvation. Christians get to choose which they prefer.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Not sure that it means 'joined to God' inasmuch its simply a reference to all the world recognizing Gods authority at the end of days. Its essentially saying the same thing as 'every knee shall bow'.
Also, its in reference to those that are still alive at his second coming. Till then, its the 'firstfruits'...i.e. those that are superior in excellence (consecrated to God for all time).
Not sure how you would interpret that as 'all' will be saved no exception. Seems fairly exceptional to me.
Maimonides
Emperor
Genesis 3:15 says, "I will put enmity between you & the woman, and between your offspring & her offspring. He will pound your head & you will bite his heel."
Doesn't look much like a messianic prophesy.
"Usually believed" is a bit of a strong statement that has no basis.
You are simply taking that verse out of context. The word, "messiah" appears no where in that chapter & I'm not sure that it appears in Genesis at all. That verse is G-d talking to the serpent about his future relationship with Eve & her descendants. It's a prophecy, but it relates in no way to the messiah. It's more of a promise than a prophecy as it comes straight from G-d, not a human prophet.
If I were to be hit by a car, I could find some random verse in the Torah about a righteous man who will be struck down & claim that it referred to me, but that would not be the thinking of a rational, intelligent adult.
That verse in Genesis doesn't mention Satan at all.
You are now referring to the New Testament, not the verse in Genesis, which makes no sense because it was your assertion that the Genesis verse was a messianic prophesy.
I'm not equipped to debate the New Testament, but I don't remember it saying that Satan struck Jesus on the heel. I thought it was one of the Roman soldiers. My memory could be incorrect & it's irrelevant anyway.
That's pretty much what it says. Domination3000 is taking it out of context & reinterpreting it to fit his beliefs.
I'm not aware of any messianic prophesy in the Tanakh that says that.
Again, most of the sacrifices made at the Temple had nothing to do with redemption from sin. The sacrifice made at Yom Kippur did, but not the others made throughout the year.
Here we have some common ground, as that's pretty much the Jewish viewpoint, too.
Ehhh no.
I suppose, but both are still Jews.
There are actually several targums. A targum is just an Aramaic translation of the Hebrew bible. They tend to contain allot of rabbinical commentary which is what you seem to be referring to. They were written after the birth of Christianity so rabbinical commentary contained in them concerning the messiah refers to the messiah Jews are still waiting for, not Jesus.
It's really interesting that you know about the targums.
As far as I know, only Yemeni Jews still use them.
David Koresh said much the same thing.
So believing that God doesn't exist at all, and the Torah is just a nice fable, is closer to "real" Judaism than believing that God had a son named Jesus? Can you explain this to me?
*snip*
I suppose, but both are still Jews.
There are actually several targums. A targum is just an Aramaic translation of the Hebrew bible. They tend to contain allot of rabbinical commentary which is what you seem to be referring to. They were written after the birth of Christianity so rabbinical commentary contained in them concerning the messiah refers to the messiah Jews are still waiting for, not Jesus.
It's really interesting that you know about the targums.
Both are definitely still Jews
I know there is at least three targums
Why thank you, I believe that the present is derived from the past so to know the future one should see what makes it so
GhostWriter16
Deity
and correct. I believe you are correct, but they were not in the original Hebrew, making them still invalid.
I see a future atheist in the making.
Never!
I have no need to explain the Maccabees quote because it is in the Apocrypha which is not scripture, but the other two verses were talking about trials on Earth.
He was joking, he was using his Russian Nationalist persona.
