Why do people get so personal about defending evolution?

I don't think it's necessarily religious people - just stupid people. "Stupid" best represents the quality I am talking about - completely ignoring evidence for the sake of continuing to believe a false belief. The same type of thing can be said of other anti-intellectual movements, such as crackpot pseudoscientific theories.

And no, they don't deserve to be represented adequately by people who have the same outlook, because if you're anti-science,you don't deserve to be even remotely in charge of regulating it.

Maybe they think people who are anti-religion don't deserve to be in charge of it, either.

As I said, it only matters what they intend to put into legislation, not simply what they believe.

No, you're putting words in my mouth. I don't think anybody should be excluded from the political process. But I also don't think it's wise to elect people who have blind faith in the bible.

If there's blind faith, then there has to be faith that is not blind. Care to describe that?
 
To put it like this: You could teach neither, and it wouldn't make a difference other than that people would believe X is the reason we exist instead of Y.

I guess, if you never wanted to get past the age of four.

'Cause that's when my son asked me about dinosaurs, and why they aren't alive today. If I wanted to answer him truthfully, I'd need to give him answers. It just so happens that all those answers jive with the Theory of Evolution.
 
Ivory Billed Woodpecker, yes. Known to have existed into the 1930s, not "officially" sighted for decades, though there were reports of sightings by locals, dismissed by ivory tower pointy-heads who don't live there and wouldn't know what the local saw.
Hooray for anti-intellectualism!

If modifed the scientific method based on the logic of Jethro and Cletus (sorry, 1 barb deserves another ;)) then we'd still all have a life expectency of about 30.

Your example is really bad on a number of levels.

First off for every ivory-billed woodpecker that turns out to be around there's dozens of others that aren't or won't be yet, so-and-so swears he saw one.

Next, I hate to tell you this, but the pointy-heads did have evidence. IIRC, it was some video footage. Also, its still not clear cut that they did rediscover it. The jury's out because the evidence is sketchy.

This whole anti-science, anti-intellectual bent is extremely foolish and dangerous.

Tell me, how many cures for cancer or other diseases have Jethro and Cletus came up with? How many discoveries in physics or mathematics that led to radical jumps in thinking that allowed us to put a man on the moon or to create nuclear power or synthetic fibers or to increase crop yields by a factor of 10 or 100?

And if your counter-argument is going to be something along the lines of herbalism or some other kind of traditionally taught medicine (shamanism), I'll acknowledge that there are times when traditional medicines are found to actually be beneficial, but for ever one of those there's probably 10 examples of traditional medicines being neutral or dangerous. And, how, ultimately, do we find the difference? Application of the scientific method.
 
Hooray for anti-intellectualism!

If modifed the scientific method based on the logic of Jethro and Cletus (sorry, 1 barb deserves another ;)) then we'd still all have a life expectency of about 30.

:lol: Funny barb, actually.
This whole anti-science, anti-intellectual bent is extremely foolish and dangerous.
For what it's worth, I'm not really anti-science at all. Scientific discoveries fascinate and thrill me. I'm more, and just went through this on #fiftychat, predisposed to being anti-scientist because of what I perceive to be an unwarranted, and misplaced, arrogance by them.

EDIT: Regarding your medical examples, I'm with you there. God gave us the talent as a species to make these marvelous technological advances. I'm not personally keen on home-grown remedies that haven't been checked out and validated. But that doesn't mean they should be dismissed outright either. Check 'em out.
 
And it also makes no sense that I should bend over to quote myself every time someone asks a question that has already been addressed.

Humor me. Just repeat your answer. Judging from the sheer number of posts everyone has here, it shouldn't be difficult at all.
 
Maybe they think people who are anti-religion don't deserve to be in charge of it, either.

As I said, it only matters what they intend to put into legislation, not simply what they believe.

If someone can actually keep their religious beliefs out of their politics, then I would have no problem with them. But I again doubt that this is possible.

If there's blind faith, then there has to be faith that is not blind. Care to describe that?

No there doesn't, it's a rhetorical devise.
 
If someone can actually keep their religious beliefs out of their politics, then I would have no problem with them. But I again doubt that this is possible.

Hi, I'm Cheezy. How ya doin'? *shakes hand*



No there doesn't, it's a rhetorical devise. If you're interested in replying to the rest of the post, here it is again :p:

If there's no difference between blind faith in the Bible and faith in the Bible, then why bother using the word blind in the first place?
 
It's also a system of thought. The idea that 'science must fit Scripture' is something that decimated the Muslim world (causing its slow decay) when Al Ghazali popularised the concept.

Sure, one doesn't need to 'believe' in evolution, but if you want any progress (and economic success and growth are tied to progress) then you need science.
Sure you do. But evolution does not = science. Evolution may be a scientific theory, but not all scientific theories are evolution. See? Answer me this honestly: Why did you phrase your sentence the way you did? Why did you put science in place of evolution at the end?

"Sure, one doesn't need to 'believe' in evolution, but if you want any progress (and economic success and growth are tied to progress) then you need science."

El Mac said:
In order to 'disbelieve' in evolution, you have to be ignorant of so much basic science that you're practically incapable of contributing to the scientific endeavour.
I completely disagree. What about all the science being conducted before evolution was introduced? And many fields of science can clearly be conducted without any knowledge of evolution. I claim all fields can be conducted without ToE, I don't see how it would be a prerequisite for doing anything practicly.

It's not that you 'have' to believe in Evolution. But you need to understand the scientific knowledge built up in the last 150 years. In order to form a scientific description of YECism, you need to completely not understand anything taught after the 2nd year courses.
Undertsanding it isn't the problem, believing it is true is the problem.
 
Homie: Planning on responding to my biblical questions anytime soon?

Cheezy said:
If there's no difference between blind faith in the Bible and faith in the Bible, then why bother using the word blind in the first place?

To emphasize how ridiculous it is.
 
I'm more, and just went through this on #fiftychat, predisposed to being anti-scientist because of what I perceive to be an unwarranted, and misplaced, arrogance by them.

Well, in that case, you're misidentifying the issue, IMHO.

What you're describing is prejudice toward experience that you see in ANY VOCATION, be it pro sports or running the local McDonalds. That said, I do think scientists can come off as arrogant. But, keep in mind, they're not trained in PR or psychology (unless that's the discipline at hand of course), they're trained in their field and how to research, etc... so, it will happen that at times they are dismissive, whatever. That said, I'm adult enough to not let me feelings get hurt when the doctor corrects me of some naively held idea about why I have a wart.

And, your doctor is a great example of what I'm saying. A lot of docs have HORRIBLE bedside manner. That doesn't mean they're not right. :)

I think people often have emotional reactions to these thing and get very personally invested when they should be cool and logical instead.

Let me give you an example of my perspective, from first hand experience. I have an MA in US History and I teach p/t in the Junior College system. Tell me, if I have a student that insists that Thomas Jefferson helped write the Constitution, does it make it correct if they can find 10 other students that agree? Does it make it correct if they feel that when I inform them he had nothing to do with it I say it in a non-flattering manner?

You will get some resentment from academics, because we know exactly what we're dealing with and we have to contend w/ the fact that you probably don't. Now, if we're good, we'll take into account that A. we're fallible and B. there are other ways to obtain knowledge other than secondary education. To that end, I have had many students who've helped me refine or add onto my knowledge base.

Additionaly, we're trained to be objective (not that we always succeed, but I doubt Jethro and Cletus could even explain the difference between subjective and objective) so when Cletus and Jethro try to correct me, I do have an instinct to be dismissive.

Or, maybe here's a better example. My day job is "Business Systems Manager" (recently promoted from Analyst thank you very much! ;)) and in that capacity I have to deal w/ users who describe system problems, then hash those out to the developers who fix them. What this has taught me is to be very skeptical toward first-hand user accounts. They often don't fully understand what they're working with or the relationship between say, picking a piece of product and how that's best viewed in the reporting software.

90% of what is brought to me is... user error. The rest, the users typically don't even know what exactly is wrong or have any idea of what it is. They're simply going by what's on the surface. I, because I'm trained and because I have skill in critical and analytical thinking, have to hash it out and make sense of it.

Lastly, let me refer you to Plato's Cave Analogy....

But that doesn't mean they should be dismissed outright either. Check 'em out.

;) Hence the last comment I made there. If they do work its the scientific method that will determine it.
 
What about all the science being conducted before evolution was introduced?

Are you aware of how far we've progressed since that time? Seriously. Scientific knowledge is built upon knowledge. In order to not understand the science that proves the ToE, you'd have to move back to the beginning of the 20th century.

What the layman doesn't seem to understand is that there are so many fields of science which have presented evidences that jives with the ToE (and completely discredits YECism). And it's not just the occassional evidence, either. There're always new data coming in that jive.

In order to be knowledgable in any of these fields (knowledgable enough to progress it) you'd have to be aware of facts that support the ToE. If you were then to disbelieve those facts due to them discrediting YECism, you'd never be able to move forward at all.

I mean, how about the quick YEC quip "mutation cannot lead to information gain"? If I were to believe that, as a truth, I couldn't do any new research in pretty well any biology. All modern biology is based on understanding genetics: and any genetics student knows a dozen ways to add 'genetic information' by their second year.
 
Humor me. Just repeat your answer. Judging from the sheer number of posts everyone has here, it shouldn't be difficult at all.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I already did repeat myself on the previous page. How could you possibly miss it? But let me guess, now you want me to pull up where I repeat what I already said in the thread? Well, here it is, AGAIN!

Homie said:
Fine, I'll repeat myself.

Natural selection can be tested in a lab. But natural selection is NOT the only process of evolution, although it is an integral part. I do believe in natural selection, but not in evolution.

That is the gist of what I said. You are equating natural selection with evolution, that is your folly.

Is there anything else you would like for me to do, my Master? Rub your feet perhaps?

Now I suppose you are gonna magically miss this post as well, and make me yet again bring it up.
 
What about all the science being conducted before evolution was introduced?
Good lord, that made me just about wet myself.

We could play that game all day. Let me see..

What about all the science conducted before ___X_____ was introduced.

Where X =
Physics
That the earth is round
Gravity
Germ Theory
etc... etc.... etc....
 
Homie: Planning on responding to my biblical questions anytime soon?

No, for two reasons:
1. You didn't answer the question, you gave me just another unspecific "answer" like the first one.
2. Secondly, in the post where I replied to Eran and stated what I believed, I also stated that I would not respond to posts that I know there will come nothing good of. I recognize those kinds of posts, and I no longer indulge the counter-poster with a heated, low-brow debate.
 
Whose talking about teaching? I sure wasn't?

To put it like this: You could teach neither, and it wouldn't make a difference other than that people would believe X is the reason we exist instead of Y.

I'll give you an example of something that would make a difference:
If we were to be taught ...
So are we talking about teaching, or not?
 
2. Secondly, in the post where I replied to Eran and stated what I believed, I also stated that I would not respond to posts that I know there will come nothing good of. I recognize those kinds of posts, and I no longer indulge the counter-poster with a heated, low-brow debate.
You're the one doing poorly in the arguments; not other people. If you want to stamp your feet and refuse to continue because you're losing, go ahead.
 
I guess, if you never wanted to get past the age of four.

'Cause that's when my son asked me about dinosaurs, and why they aren't alive today. If I wanted to answer him truthfully, I'd need to give him answers. It just so happens that all those answers jive with the Theory of Evolution.

Again, if you you believe dinosaurs became distinct because of evolution, and somebody else believes it was because a supervolcano wiped them out or something else entirely, does it really matter? Does it effect progress? Would the toaster oven not be invented had there not been the ToE?
 
Why does this long winded arguments bring back nightmares? :scared:
 
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