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Why don't you like Orbis

Discussion in 'Orbis Modmod' started by Ahwaric, Feb 15, 2010.

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Why don't you like Orbis?

Poll closed Apr 1, 2010.
  1. It is just too weird (changed FfH basics too much)

    13 vote(s)
    16.5%
  2. Not unique enough

    2 vote(s)
    2.5%
  3. Not enough features

    4 vote(s)
    5.1%
  4. Too many crashes

    14 vote(s)
    17.7%
  5. The economy is not balanced

    15 vote(s)
    19.0%
  6. AI is weak

    26 vote(s)
    32.9%
  7. The guilds are too powerful

    12 vote(s)
    15.2%
  8. OOS and other issues that break multiplayer

    13 vote(s)
    16.5%
  9. Ahwaric, take this pie and a break from modding...

    2 vote(s)
    2.5%
  10. Other (explained below)

    17 vote(s)
    21.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Kalina

    Kalina Just lurking...

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    One more thing Orbis can make to be more accessible to new players may be updating those short advices you see when loading or starting a new game. Some of them were updated for Orbis, but many are still from FfH (or even BtS).
     
  2. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

    Joined:
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    I would love to update help & pedia.
    But...

    I work on Orbis alone. My time is limited. So, I need to decide: do I fix bugs? do I add new features? Do I try to make it more balanced? Or maybe AI needs some work?

    All of the above need to be taken care of. And truth is, I prefer to add my ideas than precisely describe them.

    Also, you mentioned BtS text - it is simply because Kael & the rest of FfH team had limited time, too. You would be suprised how much help is missing in FfH. Or even BtS...

    Who knows what factors decide where is religion founded? (BtS thing - not so much needed, but still - and a thing I changed in Orbis) Or how inflation works.

    Do you know that dwarves get 2 extra xp if build in city with dreptus brewing house? (that is FfH, I have kept it at brewery...). Or that demons get the same from sacrificial altar?

    I will try to add help. But if someone is willing to write the help he or she thinks is needed, I will make sure to add it if possible.
    In short - help yourselves :p
     
  3. AgentTBC

    AgentTBC Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    Speaking only for myself, Orbis is my favorite mod in terms of polish, mechanics, tech tree, etc. But the two weakest parts (to me) are the Guilds system, which seems horribly overpowered for the human player, and the AI, which doesn't seem to take advantage of civ-specific stuff much.

    I'd like to see either the guilds less overpowering for the human player or the AI better at using the guilds. And I'd like to see the AI Civs using civ special units properly. Amurites with Firebows+Wizards, Dwarves with druids and stuff, you know. I think this is the thing WildMana does pretty well.

    Maybe you could, um, borrow some of their AI stuff.

    But I like the Orbis framework a lot.
     
  4. Wauthan

    Wauthan Inaniloquent Nihiliarian

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Messages:
    310
    Location:
    Sweden
    Hope you don't mind me answering instead of Ahwaric, but he already addressed both the issues you mentioned.

    Guilds are being discussed in their own thread. Final decision pending. Very complicated feature to balance while keeping fun.

    The Wildmana AI incorporation is not feasible. Ahwaric explains why in this post.
     
  5. arkham4269

    arkham4269 Court Writer - Orbis Mod

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,337
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    I have noticed this myself over the last few iterations of Orbis and some of the other FfH spin-off mods. I've commented before how the dwarven races seem to only build slingers, horseman and assassins and rangers. Maybe since I have an older computer and forced to play on smaller maps, this has been forcing the AI in my games to be stuck without many resources. However I do play with the 'bountiful' flag so it shouldn't be that bad.

    I don't know; it used to be the Civ AI was downright pushy when it came to resources, especially since it could (don't know if it can anymore) "see" resources even when they hadn't been discovered. This would explain why you would see the AI plunking down cities in awful tundras in vanilla Civ simply because the AI knew there was oil there.

    Now the AI just seems passive and if they don't have copper or iron they just build what they can without actively trying to acquire these resources. In Orbis, copper and iron are pretty much what rubber was to most Civ mods: you die w/out it. I mean except for maybe the Sheaim, you don't have bronze or iron to upgrade to the next tier of units, you are hosed. Yet I see the AI stuck with Tier 1 type units all the time.

    So yeah, it's not just the dwarves (though I seem to notice it more with them) but most games where I'm facing off against slingers/archers/longbowman, horsemen, assassins, rangers and the occasional adept which tend to be used poorly. (This going with my normal gripe that the AI seems to want to build improvements over man instead of actual mana nodes) - I don't know, it just seems of late the AI has gotten dumber and dumber. There used to be a time the AI was wicked nasty but not so much anymore. I must say, I don't know what tweaks the Dune Wars mod has, but there is an AI that is evil and crafty, especially when you consider it usually has to attack over dunes requiring the AI to build up a fleet of hovers to to move attack units.
     
  6. Kalina

    Kalina Just lurking...

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2008
    Messages:
    511
    Location:
    Łódź, Poland
    Tier II actually :) Iron/copper is required to build Heavy Infantry, you can build Axeman without metals. Speaking of which, maybe remove this requirement from Heavy Infantry as well ? it might help AI a little, and Copper/Iron str bonuses are making metal worth fighting for already :)

    BTW, when checking it, I noticed Auric unit... not avatar one, but str 4, melee Auric. He is only listed on melee units list and nowhere else in pedia. What is he used for ? :)
     
  7. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

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    Kraków, Poland
    Scenarios I think. But I am tempted to enable him in standard game somehow...
    You have a point with metals, but I do not want to do big changes now - maybe in the next version...

    Also, an official statement: I will release Orbis 1.0 tomorrow. Not sure about the time, the install is much bigger so will take some time to upload.

    Art pack is double the FfH's size :) And I have 500 MB of soundtrack... It is 700-800 MB total :crazyeye: Over 1,2 GB when unpacked...

    Maybe I should split it (i.e. soundtrack comes with another pack)?
     
  8. Kalina

    Kalina Just lurking...

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2008
    Messages:
    511
    Location:
    Łódź, Poland
    I'm not how sound in Civ4 works, but if it's possible - sure. Downloading 300 mb and 500 mb is easier than 800 at one time :) Especially if it works without soundtrack - from what I read in music thread, many of us play without music or with our own music. Or have weak internet connections ;>
     
  9. A Golden Dragon

    A Golden Dragon Golden Dragon

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Messages:
    232
    if possible perhaphs you should indeed :p though i would download both even though i don't listen to the music often ;) :p
     
  10. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

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    It hould work quite fine. Of course, only tracks contained within Vanilla/Warlords/BtS will actually play. You will get info on missing files, but that is all.

    I will try to split it then.
     
  11. daveishere55

    daveishere55 The Mad Scientist

    Joined:
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    Location:
    My Very Imposing Castle OF SCIENCE!
    As for myself, I really enjoy playing Orbis. I especially liked the addition of the Mechanos race and the many unit modifications made with the Amurites. The Amurite changes made them much more interesting than in standard FfH, as they went from being able to spam 2nd level arcane units to most units having some (limited) spellcasting. Having melee units able to cast "rust", recon units able to cast "sanctify", or ships able to cast "fair winds" offers much more flexibility with spells than any other race can accomplish, and truly gives them a niche in the world.
     
  12. Zharkov

    Zharkov Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2009
    Messages:
    83

    I played orbis for the first time today and I must agree with Kalina. I really cannot say that I dislike the mod. There are a lot of very interesting features, but these are very unaccessible, indeed. Some do not seem to have any purpose or are horrible complicated (e.g., wtf is oceanic/hills/newforest/grassland vs. continantal/hills/forest/plains and why are both in the middle of the continent?) If you want your mod to become more popular I would suggest to stop adding new features and concentrate on documentation and making the AI use existing features.

    Still, I think the mod is totally worth the time trying to figure out how it works. The main reason why I may refrain from doing so is that I totally dislike the ranged attack mode, because the game is slow paced to start with and this feature slows is down even more. I am really glad that one can turn it off in Wild Mana.
     
  13. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

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    That is the plan, more or less. I have plans for some features, but mostly I plan to do a lot of tweaking and expanding on small scale. And first of all, AI & documentation.
    The continantal/hills/forest/plains are hills with forest. Continental climate comes from flavourmod, it decides what type of terrain is there - but for one terrain, more than one climate can be set. I.e. grassland is both temperate & tropical. But true, it needs detailed explanation.
    I will probably either add that option as well, or rework the whole system. I need to do it as ranged attacks are THE source of OOS in multiplayer and not sure I can fix the current system.
     
  14. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Whut? Unless you changed something, each climate type should only have one terrainclass, which has one Terrain and one Hell Terrain.

    Or did Jean update it more than I thought?

    I thought the OOS from Ranged Combat went away when you merged Sephi's code?
     
  15. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

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    Climate can have only one terrain specified, but it done right, 2 or more climates can use the same terrain. Just need to make sure that climate parameters do not overlap (had some nasty crashes during 1.0 development).
    I use it for Tlacatl climate change - they transfor everything to tropical, which changes terrain to grassland & forest to jungle (no more python :) )

    Unfortunatelly, no. It probably helped, but OOS still occur It was fine till turn 205, then we got OOS almost every turn. Tried reverting the code in CvUnit.cpp to BtS, but it did not help. When I have removed renged attack abilities from all units & promotions, we got only a few OOS over 150 turns (205-370). SO it is definetly caused by ranged attacks. I will try a few more things, will keep you informed.
     
  16. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Ah, okay. Yeah, hadn't thought about multiple climates using the same terrain. Not sure why exactly it's needed, though?

    In RifE, the Mazatl/Cualli shift everything to Marsh/Jungle; Do you mean that you expanded it to Features as well, or you only use python to change forest to jungle and don't use python loops? In which case, it's virtually the same, though we don't use overlaps. :p

    Damn. I was hoping that would have fixed it. :(
     
  17. jeffreyac

    jeffreyac Mostly Harmless

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    The biggest thing I have to get used to is using food to produce all units - not being able to grab some early growth while cranking out the initial warriors/scouts seems to be hard for me to get my mind around. Not realy bad, I guess - just different, and a little bit of a shock; I'll just have to play with it and see how it works.

    Really, though, as mentioned - documentation would help. Orbis is different enough that I'm never sure if things are different because the mod changed them, or because they may be broken somehow; documentation saying how stuff is supposed to work would help alleviate my confusion!

    (On a side note - what does everyone else do for early growth? Build more granaries/ealry buildings?)
     
  18. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    What you mention (Food used on units) is just from the starting civic, Survival. Once you can change civics you can change it. ;)
     
  19. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

    Joined:
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    Complete Stranger here, but I feel compelled to give my advice here.

    How to Make Players Love you:

    One Word: Customizability. Make it easy for players to customize your features. Whether they be toggable (via a BUG-esque menu), gameoptions, or via an installer system, your mod should be very configurable. Users want to mess with the settings without learning XML. Make it easy for them, and they will come.


    How to Ruin a Good Feature:

    If the AI doesn't understand how to use a particular feature, it's worse than having that feature at all. Player-Oriented features are non-features, and many will consider them cheating, or just plain bugs. You can design the coolest combat system ever, but if the AI can't handle it, you should opt for one the AI can handle, or write AI code so they can handle yours. The general rule of thumb is that if the AI can't deal with your feature, and you can't fix the AI, cut the feature.

    You may disagree with me, but I have more downloads than Orbis + Rife + Wildmana together. ;)
     
  20. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Customizability is a nice thing, but not so easy without the WoC system, which Orbis does not have. Also, at this point it would pretty much take a complete redesign of the mod to become customizable as yours is.

    Personally, I tend to prefer more in-game choices, fewer game options... And designing everything to be modular puts a rather large hamper on what you can do when civilizations are as unique as they are in FfH. ;)

    Of course, I still add game options. I just remove others that are not appropriate to the mod (Unlocked Leaders, for example... Bad one for RifE).

    The AI doesn't understand magic (Yeah, Wild Mana does it. It also hard codes to accomplish it, which is also against a rule of thumb :p) and never has; Yet it's still here. Some features are simply too engaging to be cut, even if the AI does not understand it.

    I agree that new features should be taught to the AI, though, and that we need to try and develop a better AI for existing features.

    You may disagree with me, but I have more downloads than Orbis + Rife + Wildmana together. ;)[/QUOTE]

    I'm not too sure of that one; Your download shows around 8500, while RifE has 10541 (WePlayCiv mirror; Actually the 4th most popular file, which just shows they have less visitors. :p).

    Or do you have a mirror elsewhere?
     

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