Why I support China

[Uiler]

Actually the US giving technology to Taiwan is not necessarily a bad thing for China. There are many "patriots" in Taiwan (that's what they call them anyway). And of course there are those motivated by money as well. And many Taiwanese businesses are increasingly having stronger ties to the mainland. The point is I imagine that any technology the US gives Taiwan will inevitably make it to China.

I think the pro-independence President of Taiwan just got elected on the smallest of margins. Judging by this and talk I had with (pro-independence) Taiwanese, those in favour of reunion and those opposed are about 50-50, with those who are descended from the pre-Chiang inhabitants mostly opposed. Let's not forget, many of those who came with Chiang left behind families in the mainland. Their "home towns" are in mainland China as well as large numbers of relatives and of course the graves of their fathers and grandfathers (this is important in China). I imagine the younger generation finds these ties less strongly, but they are still there and for the older generation in particular they most feel the loss. I know many overseas Chinese still keep ties with their hometowns even if they can't go and visit.

 

[Fetus4188]

Yes. If the standards for poverty were the same for all nations, that is, based on standard of living, not what each nation decides its poverty level is, China would have a much higher poverty rate than the US.

Those aren't even the definitions used to define poverty in the US. The US and most western nations use a definition of <$11/day as poverty, I wasn't able to find a figure for the % of Chinese that would fall under that category.

 

[lobster]

I believe CCP is OK with status quo. They're just not OK if Taiwan (Republic of China) wants to make itself a new country. This is like, hmm, making ______ (any Japanese province) a separate country from Japan.

Let's not forget that the Mainland/Taiwan situation results from the unfinished civil war. Taiwan is supposed to be a province of China, no doubt about it.

But there are better ways that CCP can use. They don't have to do things so "toughly". They could have used a softer approach. Mainland maybe not have improved enough to convince the Taiwanese people. But their ultimate direction IS correct: unification of China.

 

[10Seven]

To me, local opinion as to China = motherland, or otherland is divided - but certainly not majority in favour of being 'swallowed' up.

I think it a no-brainer that Taiwan, as it is in reality it's own nation, is actually entitled to 'independence' aside from the absurdity which sees it loath to proclaim an independence that is already fact.

China's continuing assertions to the territory, as others, seems clear evidence of tha nation's imperialist tendency - at least at it's higher eschelons.

Despite, or because of, excuses, I am reminded of a number of historic parallels - most obvious being that of Nazi Germany.

Quite what can be considered good about China in reality is largely beyond me - miniscule improvements in standard of living for a relatively few is the closest anyone could get, I think.

To cue a sexy catch-phrase: China is an obvious enemy of freedom.

 

[(+) Influence]

wow. this has seriously chnaged my outlook on Taiwan and China. Thanl You. May i ask though, if so many people in Taiwan are opposed to independance, why do they elect people that seem to favor it? (isn't the leader of Taiwan about to write a new constitution?)

Also, why does Taiwan have a democratically elected president who supports Independence if, as Influence says, the majority of Taiwanese support eventual reunification?

Good questions
The reasons are
1) Taiwan Independence isn't a decisive factor during the election. Nearly nobody believed that A Bian would be able to achieve independence, so that's not an issue. He just talks really loud, but he won't do anything because of pressure from the Mainland and pressure from Taiwanese citizens.

2) Lien Chen (his opponent) is not a very good public speaker. He is also older and more homely, which shouldn't be a factor but it is

3) Some still resented him because they associated him to the previous President Lee Den Hui, who served "too many terms."

4) Right before the election A Bien planted a fake assassination attempt on himself and point the finger at Lien Chen. Though he never really accuse Lien Chen directly, he made it seem like it was Lien Chen. That turned some voters away from Lien Chen.

 

[(+) Influence]

And if we want to look at standard of living instead of income, then let's analyse the UN's Human Development Index.
As you can see in this link, China is occupying the 104th position, below the likes of Sri Lanka, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Paraguay and Peru.

Ah, thanks for bringing that up. That was another point I wanted to make. The Human Development Index has been leaping in the past couple of years. The one you provided for 2001 shows China at 104th place. In 2002 they were at 94th.[/quote] And the rank is even higher now. I agree there's still a long way to go, but hoping 10 places in 1 year is a remarkable feat.

It's true that most westerners have a wrong idea of China, but that's because it's hard to even grasp the oppressing levels of poverty in China.
All we see on TV is modern cities like Hong Kong and Shanghai, and nothing about the rural ares where most of the people live.

That's true, not all cities look like Shanghai, and Hong Kong, but the situation is the same in your country. Not all of America looks like the Silicon Valley or New York. In fact not all of New York look like Time Square.

As for the Taiwan situation, it's my understanding that the majority of taiwanese want to keep the status-quo, as demonstrated by a number of polls.
That means that they want to remain de-facto independent, even though they consider the possibility of joining the mainland in the future.

To clarify my earlier post
The group that wants immediate unification wants A Bien to declare himself Governor, and wants Hu Jintao to lead Taiwan. Hu is very popular amongst Chinese nationalists.
The group that wants immediate succession wants to declare war on China now because they believe that if they wait, China would declare war on them. They consist of a very small percentage.
The percent that wants gradual succession wants it through diplomatic means.
The vast majority of Taiwanese those who favor gradual unification wants it on the condition that China gets richer (and many sees it as highly possible). The biggest fear of immediate unification is not about freedom of speech(that's just something you westerns made up ), is the fear of a sudden influx of Mainlanders who will work for lower wages. The people in favor of status quo are in favor of future reunification once China's (economic) conditions improve. That's probably interpreted completely differently by western media.

I'm sure that if the mainland adopts some democratic reforms, many taiwaneses, if not most, will become favourable to an Union. But I can't see that happening while the CCP keeps its iron fist rule. China has indeed great potential, but there's still a loooong way to go and I'm afraid the CCP is not the right entity to lead the way.

Again democratic reforms is not an important issue for the Taiwanese people, economic issues are the most important. But if you look at link 7 that I provided on my first post, you'll see that these democratic reforms are being made.

 

[(+) Influence]

Poverty in China is a very different thing than in the USA.

I was under the assumption that since it's the same source they use the same method of calculation. But fine, I'll believe you. There's still the fact that 250 million people were lifted out of the Chinese standard of poverty in the past 25 years. Which is remarkable. And also the fact that $1 in China will get you a lot more than $1 in the US.

Those aren't even the definitions used to define poverty in the US. The US and most western nations use a definition of <$11/day as poverty, I wasn't able to find a figure for the % of Chinese that would fall under that category.

$11/day would be equivalent to $90/day in China. The international standard would put Chinese poverty level at 8 yuan a day which could buy you the same things as $8 in the US.

 

[10Seven]

I was under the assumption that since it's the same source they use the same method of calculation. But fine, I'll believe you. There's still the fact that 250 million people were lifted out of the Chinese standard of poverty in the past 25 years. Which is remarkable. And also the fact that $1 in China will get you a lot more than $1 in the US.


$11/day would be equivalent to $90/day in China. The international standard would put Chinese poverty level at 8 yuan a day which could buy you the same things as $8 in the US.

What a load of rot - are we to suddenly believe that China is so worthy of praise - while still experiencing mass censure and manipulation. Do 250 million people now receive and extra bowl of rice a day?

Why not post, 'why I support Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler' - there is no difference as all are guilty of the same.

 

[luiz]

Ah, thanks for bringing that up. That was another point I wanted to make. The Human Development Index has been leaping in the past couple of years. The one you provided for 2001 shows China at 104th place. In 2002 they were at 94th. And the rank is even higher now. I agree there's still a long way to go, but hoping 10 places in 1 year is a remarkable feat.

Still it certainly makes the situation of the chinese people very far from beign nice. China is still below Turkmenistan and Paraguay!

That's true, not all cities look like Shanghai, and Hong Kong, but the situation is the same in your country. Not all of America looks like the Silicon Valley or New York. In fact not all of New York look like Time Square.

True enough, but in my country and in the rest of the western world more then 80% of the population lives in cities, having acces to modern comfort, even if many are poor. In China this number is only 30%.

To clarify my earlier post
The group that wants immediate unification wants A Bien to declare himself Governor, and wants Hu Jintao to lead Taiwan. Hu is very popular amongst Chinese nationalists.
The group that wants immediate succession wants to declare war on China now because they believe that if they wait, China would declare war on them. They consist of a very small percentage.
The percent that wants gradual succession wants it through diplomatic means.
The vast majority of Taiwanese those who favor gradual unification wants it on the condition that China gets richer (and many sees it as highly possible). The biggest fear of immediate unification is not about freedom of speech(that's just something you westerns made up ), is the fear of a sudden influx of Mainlanders who will work for lower wages. The people in favor of status quo are in favor of future reunification once China's (economic) conditions improve. That's probably interpreted completely differently by western media.

The polls I've seens show that the majority wants to keep the status-quo, what leaves the door open both for unification and for seccession.

And the issue about freedom of speech is hardly made up, considering that China still imprisions people for crime of opinion, and actively controlls the media.

And I guess many taiwaneses could never support a government that is permanently threatning to anihilate them with an invasion.

Again democratic reforms is not an important issue for the Taiwanese people, economic issues are the most important. But if you look at link 7 that I provided on my first post, you'll see that these democratic reforms are being made.

I would believe that democratic reforms are a very important issue for the taiwanese people, after all they did them in their own homeland.

And what exactly is the advantage of merging with a gigantic and poor dictatorship, besides extreme national pride?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Why I support China- From a Taiwanese point of view

After reading the responds here on CFC, I've concluded that Western media portrays China in a very unfavorable way. There are a lot of misconceptions about China’s conditions, the Chinese Government, the China-Taiwan relationship and so on. I’m willing to bet that some here are absolutely shocked to hear a Taiwanese support the mainland government. If I’m correct, that shows the amount of antagonism western media has against the Chinese government because the reality is many; in fact a majority of Taiwanese citizens support my view. Does it represent every Taiwanese opinion? No, and nothing ever will. But does it represent a majority of the people? You bet it does.

I dont understand why China continues to be considered an enemy of the West. Sure back in the Cold War, they really were our enemies, but those days are long gone. The progress that China has made in the past 25 years is amazing. Not just economically but politically as well. If a major nation in the Middle East had on its own started to institute similar reforms, the West would be so happy it'd be sliding off its seat. I dont think the perception has anything to do with idealogy anymore, todays its just plain fear. If China continues on this path for another 25 years, forget it. They'll give new meaning to the word 'superpower'.

 

[punkbass2000]

Sorry to threadjack a bit, but I just saw your sig, BE.

"Dont hate me because Im always right. Be positive. Love yourself. No matter how stupid you are."

Interestingly enough, I just read a fortune cookie reading, 'There is no mistake so great as that of always being right'.

 

[lobster]

I dont understand why China continues to be considered an enemy of the West. Sure back in the Cold War, they really were our enemies, but those days are long gone. The progress that China has made in the past 25 years is amazing. Not just economically but politically as well. If a major nation in the Middle East had on its own started to institute similar reforms, the West would be so happy it'd be sliding off its seat. I dont think the perception has anything to do with idealogy anymore, todays its just plain fear. If China continues on this path for another 25 years, forget it. They'll give new meaning to the word 'superpower'.

Correct. Politics it not about ideology, religion, or right or wrong. It's all about power and money.

It's Mao who broke the country's economy and image. He's dead for 28 years now. China is more or less like any other country economically after Deng Xiaoping took over.

As for why A Bien won. There is also the fact that the Kuomintang (Nationalist party) has problems too. It's corrupt, very corrupt (the main reason they lost mainland to CCP). They were divided within, and in 2000 they actually divided into 2 parties. There is also the history factor. Back in the 50's and 60's they didn't really treat the then "local people" very well. Yes, they slaughtered, jailed, looted, in some rare cases, raped (this is witnessed by my girlfriend's grandparents). These are still remembered now. There are people who want to pay the Nationalists back when they have the chance (vote them out of office).

EDIT: Lien Chen is from a very very rich family whose wealth could be traced back to the Qing Empire time. His grandfather was a historian. His family fled from Taiwan to the Shanxi province in mainland after Japan took over and Lien Chen was born there. Later they returned home when Japan lost the war. END OF EDIT

But after 5 years of incompetence, even some hardcore "native" Taiwan people I know are starting to re-consider their wisdom now. I for a Hong Konger have no preference (that's not my country) but I support eventual reconcilation (not any time soon).

On a side note Taiwan only started "real" democracy in 1996. Nothing really democratic under Chiang Kaishek's rule. It's his son Chiang Jinguo who gradually turned Taiwan democratic. Credit for him.

 

[Theige]

I dont understand why China continues to be considered an enemy of the West. Sure back in the Cold War, they really were our enemies, but those days are long gone. The progress that China has made in the past 25 years is amazing. Not just economically but politically as well. If a major nation in the Middle East had on its own started to institute similar reforms, the West would be so happy it'd be sliding off its seat. I dont think the perception has anything to do with idealogy anymore, todays its just plain fear. If China continues on this path for another 25 years, forget it. They'll give new meaning to the word 'superpower'.

First of all you give China way too much credit. At their current pace they will reach HALF of what the U.S. is NOW. Unless the U.S. experiences some kind of catastrophic collapse China will not catch them for at least a 100 years. And don't forget that china is still in their Industrial Revolution, I would like to see a USA 19th century/early 20th century comparison with a Chinese late 20th century comparison, because it seems similar. And if you think China will maintain this pace for 25 years you are delusioned, because they are already slowing down.

Politically? Tibet still hangs over China, people are begining to forget, but if you read into the facts its still pretty terrible for China. Also the fact that they hold the threat of war over a country that wants to remain 'de-facto' independent is bad enough. Their relations with Japan are worsening rather quickly, and if you think China would be able to mount any kind of war against Japan you are seriously mistaken - they still lack any capability to mount a war against Taiwan - let alone japan, and japan is about to do a massive reform of its military.

Reforms? What reforms? They are communist, only they have realized in order to have any kind of an economy they have to capitalize it. Fine, congradulate them for reforming their economy, they won't have as many starving people. But they still rank among the Top 10 oppressive countries, easily, they might even be Top 5 (I think 2004 might have been the year they moved out of Top 5, to 6 or 7, and yes their are magazines that evaluate that kind of stuff )

 

[Shaihulud]

First of all you give China way too much credit. At their current pace they will reach HALF of what the U.S. is NOW. Unless the U.S. experiences some kind of catastrophic collapse China will not catch them for at least a 100 years. And don't forget that china is still in their Industrial Revolution, I would like to see a USA 19th century/early 20th century comparison with a Chinese late 20th century comparison, because it seems similar. And if you think China will maintain this pace for 25 years you are delusioned, because they are already slowing down.

Poor old China! Either it is a growing threat or that it's so pathetic that it would never reach USA standard. China is oppressive because it needs to, riots and corruption is not conducive to business. Think of it as a phase they are going through at the moment.

You seems to fear China and denigrate its capability at the same time. Do you really care about the Tibetians or is it just an excuse for retarding China's progress? Its not like they are committing genocide there you know, historically there is even precedence for Tibet to belong to China. Are they threatening Japan with war? As the OP stated, he is a taiwanese and he supports unification with China as with many other Taiwanese. I can understand why you as an American dislike the notion of your country losing its influence in East Asia. Admit it your distaste for China is more to do with powerplay than any consideration for the well being of the people there.

 

[Theige]

Tibet is not genocide, and it is all the more tragic because of that fact. The outside world does nothing, while Tibet is destroyed. Soon (it may have already happened) there will be more Chinese in Tibet than Tibetans :/. Like the Manchurians in Northern China, their language and culture may disappear forever. But that kind of stuff doesn't matter to the CCP or the people of China. Its very sad, and I wish something could be done about it.

I never said China was a threat to the U.S.

Its a threat to countries like Taiwan, because China is threatening them

Any time a Dictatorship becomes as powerful as China is becoming, we must worry.

SEE: Germany, Japan, and Italy in the 1930's and 1940's

 

[Louis XXIV]

and Ireland is currently an independent country

Except in the North, where the British Protestants replaced Irish Catholics as the majority. This wasn't done through "nice" actions either In this sense, I think Uiler has a point. Does this make Chinese actions "right"? I don't think so. But I also don't think claims of sovreignty loosely based on historical information is anything but a country trying to get more powerful. I think the same thing was true with the Black Hand in Serejevo, trying to expand the Serbian state into Bosnia and beyond. The fact that unity couldn't be achieved in the area is obvious by the fact that Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore, and the balkans looks like a jigsaw puzzle.

There have been many examples of democracies in the past that were unstable, this is true. But Democracies do not necessarily have to be unstable or involve riots (and corruption is not necessarily exclusive to elected governments). In fact, a good democracy should actually have less riots, since you voice your opinion in the voting process. I think China could do a much better job with civil rights. At the very least, freedom of the press that promotes discussion should be allowed.

 

[Shaihulud]

Tibet is not genocide, and it is all the more tragic because of that fact. The outside world does nothing, while Tibet is destroyed. Soon (it may have already happened) there will be more Chinese in Tibet than Tibetans :/. Like the Manchurians in Northern China, their language and culture may disappear forever. But that kind of stuff doesn't matter to the CCP or the people of China. Its very sad, and I wish something could be done about it.

I never said China was a threat to the U.S.

Its a threat to countries like Taiwan, because China is threatening them

Any time a Dictatorship becomes as powerful as China is becoming, we must worry.

SEE: Germany, Japan, and Italy in the 1930's and 1940's

So you are sad that it wasn't a genocide? Are you more worried about it being a loss from an anthropologic point of view? Its always a sad fact when a culture is lost, I do believe however that minority cultures in China is not being lost as minority are exempted from the one child policy in China, minority cultures are also encouraged among it's adherents. the situation in china is complex. If the government believes that a culture or religion is a threat to its authority, it will actively crack down on or subvert it. China will always factor into the threat/stability of the region because of its population and size.

 

[amadeus]

As far as the anti-independence protests go, do you know what they are protesting? They don't want to be a part of the communist regime, they continue to believe that the KMT (as I believe also) is the legal and legitimate government of mainland China, not the island of Taiwan/Formosa.

 

[Warman17]

In 2003, China also became the third nation in the world ever to have gone to space.
....

I know the United States, Russia, France and Japan have gone into space before China probobly a few other nations as well. What do you mean by third nation to go to space? Manned visits, space stations, what?

 

[amadeus]

I supported the Chinese sending their guy up into space. Hopefully soon, they'll be able to send up the whole Central Committee.