Why I support China

[Sarevok]

I supported the Chinese sending their guy up into space. Hopefully soon, they'll be able to send up the whole Central Committee.

yeah, then we can arrange an... accident

 

[(+) Influence]

I know the United States, Russia, France and Japan have gone into space before China probobly a few other nations as well. What do you mean by third nation to go to space? Manned visits, space stations, what?

Yes, I mean manned missions. The USSR and the US were the two nations before China to send a man to space. Countries like France and England had also sent men to space but only in American or Russian rockets.

There is also the fact that the Kuomintang (Nationalist party) has problems too. It's corrupt, very corrupt (the main reason they lost mainland to CCP).

The Guo Ming Dang right now is very honest and open to the people. It is Chen Shui Bien who is very manipulative and corrupted.

 

[Sarevok]

And also the fact that $1 in China will get you a lot more than $1 in the US.

Thats like saying $1 US Dollar can get more than 1 Yen. Its true, but when it comes down do it, that is a matter of inflated prices, not about poverty. Also, I hardly am willing to believe that Yuans are as common as US Dollars.

 

[(+) Influence]

Also the fact that they hold the threat of war over a country that wants to remain 'de-facto' independent is bad enough.

Why not post, 'why I support Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler' - there is no difference as all are guilty of the same.

The purpose of my thread was to clarify some of the misconceptions about China. I have no desire to change the opinion of those who are so convinced in their conviction of China that nothing can change their minds. You can continue to have the notion of the “Evil China” if that serves any of your higher purposes; it’s not my lost. I realize that no matter what the Chinese do there’ll be Americans who will not trust them, and I’m fine with that. I’ve seen Team America World Police and I know what it’ll take to earn an American’s trust, and I’m not willing to go there. You can continue to believe your myths.

As far as the anti-independence protests go, do you know what they are protesting? They don't want to be a part of the communist regime, they continue to believe that the KMT (as I believe also) is the legal and legitimate government of mainland China, not the island of Taiwan/Formosa.

Thank you for informing us Taiwanese what we’re protesting about Too bad you’re 30 years behind in our actual mentality.
Didn’t you make a big deal about going away? What brings you back?

 

[(+) Influence]

Still it certainly makes the situation of the chinese people very far from beign nice. China is still below Turkmenistan and Paraguay!

You are confused between status and progress. Yes, if you average out the wealth, the per capita income is still very low, but huge progresses are being made. Remember, the CCP was handed practically a wasteland from Mao. In the 30 years time, China couldn’t possibly be like the US who has industrialized for over 100 years now.

And I guess many taiwaneses could never support a government that is permanently threatning to anihilate them with an invasion.

That’s true, we would never support a government like that, but most of the Taiwanese don’t see China as that guy. You Americans may see it that way, but we don’t. There is a strong opposition to lifting of the embargo (and you may see that as evidence of Chinese aggression), but there was also a strong opposition of the US selling weapons to Taiwan. Both of those issues are seen as attempts to divide China.

And what exactly is the advantage of merging with a gigantic and poor dictatorship, besides extreme national pride?

In order to understand the situation, you really have to break out of that American mentality of seeing Taiwan and China as David and Goliath. It’s a difference in culture, and it’s hard to understand, but we Taiwanese don’t have the mentality of “We have a better system so therefore you’re wrong, and we’d have nothing to do with you” In the Chinese culture family is first and if the family is not divided, any conflict can be resolved. If the family is united, any hardship is secondary, and one day the family would be “yuan” (circular or full without edges), and the Taiwanese very much sees the Mainland as family.

 

[Sarevok]

China is a great nation with great people and great culture, but a terrible inept, incompetent, and absolutist government.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

That’s true, we would never support a government like that, but most of the Taiwanese don’t see China as that guy. You Americans may see it that way, but we don’t. There is a strong opposition to lifting of the embargo (and you may see that as evidence of Chinese aggression), but there was also a strong opposition of the US selling weapons to Taiwan. Both of those issues are seen as attempts to divide China.

In order to understand the situation, you really have to break out of that American mentality of seeing Taiwan and China as David and Goliath.

You haven't yet clarified how your opinion represents the majority of people in Taiwan? Even your own sources mention pro-independence rallies numbering 200,000 and anti-independence to number only a few thousand. Not that rallies are you should judge this by. I am aware that many in Taiwan support the "status quo," but your reason would make it appear as if the threat of invasion and lack of foreign support to go against the status quo are not factors. Maybe some people just don't support going to war. Maybe business has something to do with it. I have heard far more Taiwanese claim to be anti-independence because of stability. Not only for self preservation but for economic gain.

 

[Dann]

Tibet is not genocide, and it is all the more tragic because of that fact. The outside world does nothing, while Tibet is destroyed. Soon (it may have already happened) there will be more Chinese in Tibet than Tibetans :/. Like the Manchurians in Northern China, their language and culture may disappear forever. But that kind of stuff doesn't matter to the CCP or the people of China. Its very sad, and I wish something could be done about it.

I have a soft spot for preserving distinct minority populations too. But unfortunately this is a natural process. Despite them enjoying perks like exemption from the one-child rule, the Tibetans, Machurians etc. are simply being out-bred by the Han. It's not like the government is trucking in people to Tibet.

And as a public service, I'd like to point out that a lot of Russian towns in Siberia along the Chinese border now have more Chinese people than locals.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

I'm not entirely certain that the Chinese people view reality through the same lens as the rest of us. It's probably pointless to try explaining our PoV.

Tiennemen Square was no big deal to them. The average Chin on the street, I mean, not the perpetrators. Consider that before you continue this.

 

[punkbass2000]

"Soon (it may have already happened) there will be more Chinese in Tibet than Tibetans "

It already has. I can't remember the exact ratio, but it seens to me it's in the scale of 10 or 100 Chinese for every Tibetan.

 

[luiz]

You are confused between status and progress. Yes, if you average out the wealth, the per capita income is still very low, but huge progresses are being made. Remember, the CCP was handed practically a wasteland from Mao. In the 30 years time, China couldn’t possibly be like the US who has industrialized for over 100 years now.

The chinese progress is overrated. It is quite common that nations experience periods of huge economic growth. This is specially common in nations that had little to no industrial development, like China. In the late 20's, for exemple, the Soviet Union doubled their economy in a few years. From 1940 to 1970 Brazil had an average growth rate of 8%, peaking at 12.5% in severall years.

My point is that you should not give the CCP too much credit. China is living its industrialisantion period, as have many other nations long ago. This phase will end, don't expect China to maintain this pace in the nex decades.

That’s true, we would never support a government like that, but most of the Taiwanese don’t see China as that guy. You Americans may see it that way, but we don’t. There is a strong opposition to lifting of the embargo (and you may see that as evidence of Chinese aggression), but there was also a strong opposition of the US selling weapons to Taiwan. Both of those issues are seen as attempts to divide China.

How can you not view them sa that guy, since China publically threatned to invade Taiwan in more then one occasion?

In order to understand the situation, you really have to break out of that American mentality of seeing Taiwan and China as David and Goliath. It’s a difference in culture, and it’s hard to understand, but we Taiwanese don’t have the mentality of “We have a better system so therefore you’re wrong, and we’d have nothing to do with you” In the Chinese culture family is first and if the family is not divided, any conflict can be resolved. If the family is united, any hardship is secondary, and one day the family would be “yuan” (circular or full without edges), and the Taiwanese very much sees the Mainland as family.

I'm brazilian

If the taiwanese want to join the mainland, they will vote for a president that puts forth that policy. If not, Taiwan has every right to remain indepenent, and I'll remain a vocal supporter of such right, and a vocal critic of the chinese threats.

 

[luiz]

Just to add somthing to this debate:

Opinion polls conducted by Taiwan Mainland Affairs Council showed a steady trend in increasing fraction of residents identifying themselves as Taiwanese only. According to one opinion poll conducted in Feb 2000, 45% of Taiwan residents identify themselves to be Taiwanese only, 39.4% identify themselves to be both Taiwanese and Chinese, and 13.9% identify themselves to be Chinese only. (1). In October 2004, just after president Chen's speech on Taiwan's national day, one poll revealed that over 60% of Taiwan's residents identify themselves as Taiwanese only. Those who would call themselves both Taiwanese and Chinese dropped to below 20%, but roughly the same number still identify themselves as Chinese only

link

So basically most taiwaneses do not consider theirselves to be chinese, and this trend is getting stronger.

 

[Theige]

So you are sad that it wasn't a genocide? Are you more worried about it being a loss from an anthropologic point of view? Its always a sad fact when a culture is lost, I do believe however that minority cultures in China is not being lost as minority are exempted from the one child policy in China, minority cultures are also encouraged among it's adherents. the situation in china is complex. If the government believes that a culture or religion is a threat to its authority, it will actively crack down on or subvert it. China will always factor into the threat/stability of the region because of its population and size.

Twist my words as you wish, it doesnt change the meaning of what I said. Its a much sadder situation because its not categorized as a full fledged genocide by that exempleray instution, the UN. I would consider it a genocide, the Dalai Llama puts the number at 1 million Tibetens killed from 1950 to 1989. Many more have fled their homeland, the Chinese have taken over the country and slowly dismantled their culture.

Minority cultures are exempt from the one child policy? well hooray

Its one thing to crack down on or subvert a minority people - its another thing to destroy those people. They are being erased from their own country.

 

[Theige]

The purpose of my thread was to clarify some of the misconceptions about China. I have no desire to change the opinion of those who are so convinced in their conviction of China that nothing can change their minds. You can continue to have the notion of the “Evil China” if that serves any of your higher purposes; it’s not my lost. I realize that no matter what the Chinese do there’ll be Americans who will not trust them, and I’m fine with that. I’ve seen Team America World Police and I know what it’ll take to earn an American’s trust, and I’m not willing to go there. You can continue to believe your myths.

What are you saying is a myth?

That China holds the threat of invasion over Taiwan or that Taiwan is a 'de-facto' independent country.

The simple fact is Americans do not trust communist or dictatorial countries.

Do we look upon India the same way as China?

No, because they are a democratic nation.

Believe me, I want to like China, their history is amazing. But until their government legitamizes itself (representation of the people) Americans will have a very hard time trusting them.

 

[Sarevok]

What are you saying is a myth?

That China holds the threat of invasion over Taiwan or that Taiwan is a 'de-facto' independent country.

The simple fact is Americans do not trust communist or dictatorial countries.

Do we look upon India the same way as China?

No, because they are a democratic nation.

Believe me, I want to like China, their history is amazing. But until their government legitamizes itself (representation of the people) Americans will have a very hard time trusting them.

that is essentially what I mentioned above.

 

[(+) Influence]

What are you saying is a myth?

All I’m saying is you have a certain opinion of China and I don’t think I’ll ever convince you otherwise. I’ll let someone else more talented do that. What I offer on this thread is the best that I have. I’ve read all the threads about China, and I realize that if I try to argue with you, we’ll not make any progress. I can already predict what it will eventually degenerate to.

(not you specifically, but people who's mind about China is already etched in stone)

You: “China! Hitler! Mao! Hitler! Stalin! Hitler! Pol Pot! Hitler! Tiananmen! Hitler! China is an aggressive power, and their military is growing too strong. The Taiwanese people feel threatened everyday.

Me: “Actually, I’m from Taiwan and I can tell you that the Taiwanese people towards the Mainland are positive. And China’s growth is mostly economic.”

You: “China! Hitler! Mao! Hitler! Stalin! Hitler! Pol Pot! Hitler! Tibet! Hitler! China’s economic growth is not impressive. Their military is weak too. Just park two US Carriers in the Taiwan Strait and the Chinese will piss in their pants. Someone needs to protect the Taiwanese.

Me: “You’re not even listening to what I’m saying.”

You: “China! Hitler! Mao! Hitler! Stalin! Hitler! Pol Pot! Hitler! Saddam! Hitler! I think we should nuke China, for the sake of the Taiwanese.”

That’s what every other thread has turned into. If you want to believe that China is the Communist boogeyman, then be my guest and believe that. I don’t think I have the talent to convince you otherwise.

link

So basically most taiwaneses do not consider theirselves to be chinese, and this trend is getting stronger.

Do you have another source besides Wikipedia? From my observations and local polls, those numbers seems extremely high. Even in Taipei, where thoughts of independence brew, the number that actually wants independence is less than those who wants the door opened for eventual unification. (Here I’m interpreting “Taiwan only” to mean “wanting independence.” I can't really imagine those who don't see themselves as Chinese and wanting eventual unification. So I'm inclined to think that Wikipedia is just being naughty)

 

[(+) Influence]

How can you not view them sa that guy, since China publically threatned to invade Taiwan in more then one occasion?

Well, there’s talk and there’s reality. We’re all aware of the Mainland’s tough talk, but we all know that nothing will happen as long as Taiwan doesn’t declare independence. And we know that there’ll be plenty of citizens to oppose the declaration. And we’re not opposed to it because we fear the Mainland, we illegitimately want the door open for unification. The only way to understand fully is to live amongst the Taiwanese.

I'm brazilian

Initially I couldn’t stop laughing to hear a Brazilian guy talk about human rights, but now I really think that we’re just on opposite sides of the same boat.
About a month ago, there were about 50 students going around gathering petitions against China’s support of Brazil for a permanent seat in the UN, because of "Brazil’s human rights record." They told me about the racism that existed in Brazil, where the whites still exploit the blacks to get rich, and how leaders who actually tried to help the poor were threatened. Then they told me about all the corruption and police brutality in Brazil, and tried to convince me to sign the petition. (I didn’t sign the petition of course , but I remember thinking ‘wow, I’m glad I don’t live in Brazil’)

Here’s a link

And here are some quotes:

Extrajudicial killings committed by state police (military and civil) remained a serious problem throughout the country. Uniformed police summarily executed suspected criminals and then filed false reports that the deceased were resisting arrest. There were numerous killings by police. Statistics released by the Sao Paulo State Secretary for Security indicated that 610 people were killed during the year by Sao Paulo police (civil and military); statistics released by the Sao Paulo police ombudsman indicated that 825 people were killed by Sao Paulo police during the year. The ombudsman’s figures included killings by off-duty police. In April 2001, the U.N. Special Rapporteur on Torture noted that torture by jail and prison officials often resulted in death (see Section 1.c.). Harsh prison conditions and prison riots continued to lead to the death of inmates (see Section 1.c.). Police also killed street children, indigenous persons, and labor activists (see Sections 5 and 6.a.). Death squads and other criminal groups, many of which included police as members, committed other killings. Numerous credible reports indicated the involvement of state police officials in crime, including revenge killings and the intimidation and killing of witnesses involved in testifying against police officials (see Section 1.e.). The authorities' failure to investigate, prosecute, and punish police who committed such acts perpetuated a climate of impunity that encouraged human rights abuses. Many persons continued to be killed in disputes over land ownership and usage.

An April 2001 report by human rights organizations stated that law enforcement authorities summarily executed approximately 2,000 persons each year.

China executes approximately 10,000 each year, so that means taking into account of population you guys still have a 146% kill ratio compared to China (who’s the bad guy now? )

Look, I don’t want to bash Brazil. I think the real situation here is pride in one’s country. You look at your country and see all the wonderful things that you see and wish that everyone else could recognize. I see my country and all the wonderful things that I see and wish that everyone else would recognize it. Taiwan is a great place, China is a great place, and I wish that some people could see it before they judge it.

 

[Shaihulud]

Twist my words as you wish, it doesnt change the meaning of what I said. Its a much sadder situation because its not categorized as a full fledged genocide by that exempleray instution, the UN. I would consider it a genocide, the Dalai Llama puts the number at 1 million Tibetens killed from 1950 to 1989. Many more have fled their homeland, the Chinese have taken over the country and slowly dismantled their culture.

Minority cultures are exempt from the one child policy? well hooray

Its one thing to crack down on or subvert a minority people - its another thing to destroy those people. They are being erased from their own country.

How did I twisted your words? You implied that it was a pity that China's action in Tibet was not viewed as genocide. It wasn't genocide, was it? I would not take Dalai lama's word for it, afterall he is not an impartial observer, and stands to have a great deal of power if he can force China's hand. Problem is, he wants it all, he can't stand losing his secular power. Other sects of Tibetian Buddhism compromised and are still flourishing. Is there any widespread dissent within Tibet? Revolts? Is Dalai Lama their defacto leader? it is a power tussle for him and he lost! Now China won't even negotiate with him because he made such a nuisance of himself BooHoooHO.

 

[punkbass2000]

Yeah, the Dalai Lama is in it for power!

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

I don't support China because it is occupying Tibet and insidiously attempting to commit genocide of its people.

I agree with this and the statements made by Luiz.