Why is America seemingly so opposed to a Universal Health Service?

[emzie]

So as long people don't care enough about their selves its ok. And it was a majority of Americans polled not a majority of Americans.

Some percentage of the population will always be a drain. I think keeping those people in better health makes them less of a drain over all.

Ease of access? If you can't get to the free clinic you won't be able to get the pay one either.

I had an ingrown toenail last year. I didn't have insurance. I tried to go through a free clinic -- they booked appointments 2 days a month between the hours of 9 AM and 1 AM. On my first attempt, I couldn't get through -- busy signal every time. Two weeks later, I booked the day off to sit there for 4 hours and hit redial. I eventually got through 30 minutes before the lines closed. I booked an appointment for a month later.

I gave up and went to the hospital. It cost me 400 bucks after the hospital took off their costs as charity (the left over was the doctor's fee). It would have been cheaper for me to drive to Windsor, Ontario, have it done there the same night, and drive home the next day.

That's where I'm comming from when I say American healthcare is fubar. And this is just small amounts for basically trivial things.

 

[warpus]

I intend to demand an opt out package for those of us who don't want or need it.

What are you going to do - write an angry letter to your congressman saying that you don't want to pay full taxes because you don't intend to use all the services provided by the government?

Has this worked for you (or anyone else) in the past?

 

[skadistic]

Some percentage of the population will always be a drain. I think keeping those people in better health makes them less of a drain over all.



I had an ingrown toenail last year. I didn't have insurance. I tried to go through a free clinic -- they booked appointments 2 days a month between the hours of 9 AM and 1 AM. On my first attempt, I couldn't get through -- busy signal every time. Two weeks later, I booked the day off to sit there for 4 hours and hit redial. I eventually got through 30 minutes before the lines closed. I booked an appointment for a month later.

I gave up and went to the hospital. It cost me 400 bucks after the hospital took off their costs as charity (the left over was the doctor's fee). It would have been cheaper for me to drive to Windsor, Ontario, have it done there the same night, and drive home the next day.

That's where I'm comming from when I say American healthcare is fubar. And this is just small amounts for basically trivial things.

Why did you wait for an ingrown nail?Those don't pop up out of no where. Maybe you should have an appointment much earlier. Did you talk to the hospital about a payment plan for the costs?

 

[skadistic]

What are you going to do - write an angry letter to your congressman saying that you don't want to pay full taxes because you don't intend to use all the services provided by the government?

Has this worked for you (or anyone else) in the past?

Thats how a representative democracy works. You express your self to the people who are in office.

And it has worked.

But if I must pay for it I will simply raise the price I charge the feds.

 

[Merkinball]

I think the better question in regards to Aug's toenail is...Why do you think it cost so much in the first place? I'll give you a clue. It begins with an m, and ends in cair. And it begins with an illegal, and ends with an immigrant. So on and so forth.

 

[emzie]

Why did you wait for an ingrown nail?Those don't pop up out of no where. Maybe you should have an appointment much earlier. Did you talk to the hospital about a payment plan for the costs?

Second day at work I dropped a heavy box on my toe. Hurt at the time, forgot about it, problem started a while later. Work won't cover it (didn't document the injury when it happened) so I saw a doctor (125 out of pocket) she gives me a script for some anti inflamatories and codeine says soak it / clean it / the ususal and come back if it gets worse.

Couldn't afford to go back. At the time I was living off credit cards trying to keep my brother from having to leave highschool during his senior year and move in with his grandparents. That's when I started trying to get in to the free clinic.

When I finally couldn't take it anymore, I went to the hospital. They wrote off the costs they could, but couldn't write off the doctor's fee. They said wait for the bill in the mail and work out an arangment with him.

I mean the difference between that and just walking into a clinic here in Canada is huge.

I think the better question in regards to Aug's toenail is...Why do you think it cost so much in the first place? I'll give you a clue. It begins with an m, and ends in cair. And it begins with an illegal, and ends with an immigrant. So on and so forth.

That's a fair point. Even if I was uncovered in Canada (which you are for 90 days when you move out of Province) it wouldn't've been near that much. The problem with American healthcare isn't just one thing and can't be fixed by any one thing.

 

[Sidhe]

Several points here, unlike our system that is thinking of implementing it, I see no reason why those who wanted to couldn't opt out of the plan and not pay taxes, or our equivalent of national insurance. Seems perfectly reasonable to me? I don't understand the idea of fraudulent claims as if you're paying out of your taxes, ripping the state government off - if that's even possible - is just shooting yourself in the foot, as you will simply be paying more taxes to cover any fraud?

Besides I've never heard that happening over here to any extent? There is some concern that people will be frivolous about seeking health care, and will go in to the Dr's for every cold and sniffle. Whilst I think that's better than letting problems go because the cost is prohibitive, there are means to stop this. For example there are 24 hr free phone numbers and internet advice, that is qualified up to consultant level advice, which tends to make superfluous visits to hospitals and Dr's much less of an issue.

And Merkinball, I have no idea what medicaid has to do with universal health care, it sounds like a sucky system anyway, and it would be redundant under a semi private system, you would either pay taxes, or you would opt out. I fail to see how having a state funded system is going to cost as much as having closing on 15% GDP anyway. But then there are no figures for the system, it just stands to reason. Since the US is one of the only countries with such a system and that all other countries with a different system, large, larger or smaller are vastly cheaper, whether the health care is run on a federal basis or otherwise, that the idea that this would be more is little more than a fantasy and an unsubstantiated one I might add.

Apologies Theo I wasn't aware that it was the businesses that had all the power over the government. And this is a good system how? Actually I'm glad that politicians are forbidden from being lobbied by industry in this country, it sounds like a terrible idea to let business have that much say over how the country is run. But there you go.

 

[mangxema]

The only people on Medicaid are the poor...

Eh... not quite. There are also the disabled (who are, as a consequence, poor). Just throwing that out there.

 

[MobBoss]

No one would be making you get rid of any private insurance you currently hold!

What would be the point of private insurance if the government is paying for everything?

Oh, there's certainly "gaming of the system". We have some forum mates who abuse their underfunded government-paid health-care services, I'm sure.

What, exactly, are you alleging here?

 

[emzie]

What would be the point of private insurance if the government is paying for everything?

While a government-run insurance program wouldn't be horrible, it wouldn't be as inclusive as what premium packages offer.

 

[Mise]

An average Canadian making 50k pays about $2052 in taxes for his health care. The government actually pays ~$2120 for him, so he's getting subsidized a little bit (~$70 per year). Our median income for a family is about $84,000, but that's kinda comparing apples to oranges.

The out-of-pocket cost is about $1000 per capita, but half of that is paid by insurance, and very likely much of that out-of-pocket consists mostly of elective procedures.

So, the $50k individual is very near paying his own way with the government, as well as paying for everyone poorer than him. He has a projected out-of-pocket of ~$1000 compared to an American (also 'paying his own way' with taxes) who would have a projected out-of-pocket of $3200. I don't know how much an American has to make before he's paying back his per capita cost (to the government) in taxes.

VRWCAgent is paying ~$2250 for his current coverage (out of pocket), without counting the $2750 his government is already paying for him. I don't know what portion of the $2750 VRWCAgent is paying for with his taxes.

Our company provides subsidised private health insurance. One of my workmates, who has a wife and 3 kids, gets his whole family covered for £1,200 per year ($2,400). I don't know what I pay (I should really check that at some point...) but I'd wager it's a hell of a lot cheaper than $2,250.

 

[Bamspeedy]

I don't understand the idea of fraudulent claims as if you're paying out of your taxes, ripping the state government off - if that's even possible - is just shooting yourself in the foot, as you will simply be paying more taxes to cover any fraud?

People don't look at it that way. If someone rips off the government for $1000, that is $1000 for themselves, but when spread out over 300 million people, their taxes won't even go up $0.01. Whether that individual does or does not rip off the government won't make much of a difference because they don't have any influence on the thousands or millions of other people who are ripping off the government. People treat corporations the exact same way "Oh, they have lots of money, they won't be hurt by my shoplifting".

 

[El_Machinae]

Our company provides subsidised private health insurance. One of my workmates, who has a wife and 3 kids, gets his whole family covered for £1,200 per year ($2,400). I don't know what I pay (I should really check that at some point...) but I'd wager it's a hell of a lot cheaper than $2,250.

You're paying more indirectly, though, if the company is subsidizing it. I don't know what package deal they get, but theoretically your wages could be higher if the company wasn't pooling funds to purchase the insurance. Of course, your wages are effectively higher, because you're getting part of a package deal (which has a higher value to you)

 

[warpus]

People ripping off the system isn't a big problem in any of the countries where universal healthcare has been implemented.

It stands to reason that it wouldn't be a big problem in the U.S. either, unless you really want to argue that Americans are far more likely to cheat the system.

 

[Sidhe]

People don't look at it that way. If someone rips off the government for $1000, that is $1000 for themselves, but when spread out over 300 million people, their taxes won't even go up $0.01. Whether that individual does or does not rip off the government won't make much of a difference because they don't have any influence on the thousands or millions of other people who are ripping off the government. People treat corporations the exact same way "Oh, they have lots of money, they won't be hurt by my shoplifting".

I just have never heard of our health care being abused in this way, it sounds ludicrous, it just doesn't happen or if it does it's such a rarity, that I've never heard of it. Also what exactly are you going to do to rip them off? Claim you need an operation when you don't. The Dr's will turn round and say, sure we can do it but it's unnecessary, I suggest you have it done privately, we wont cover it. They don't cover cosmetic surgery or anything like that anyway, unless it's for disfiguring injuries. Sounds like this is part and parcel of your system, but I've never heard of it happening outside of your system.

Another interesting factoid is that the amount you pay in national insurance almost never covers the amount you get back in health care, no matter how rich you are (probably because the wealthy only pay 1% NI anyway) the excess is covered as broad taxes. So the wealthy and upper middle classes earning more than £35,000 are covered by their base tax rate. Which means if you do opt for private and it will be the mostly wealthy who do you will then be paying way over the odds.

 

[Mise]

You're paying more indirectly, though, if the company is subsidizing it. I don't know what package deal they get, but theoretically your wages could be higher if the company wasn't pooling funds to purchase the insurance. Of course, your wages are effectively higher, because you're getting part of a package deal (which has a higher value to you)

Hmm. Fair point. ...Actually could you clarify? Basically, it's an opt in thing, where the company takes £1,200 out of your paycheque and buys insurance for you. So if I opted out, I'd get £1,200 more in my paycheque. Are you saying that, if everyone opted out (or, if they didn't do the scheme in the first place), I'd get more than £1,200 more in my paycheque?

 

[Merkinball]

I just have never heard of our health care being abused in this way, it sounds ludicrous, it just doesn't happen or if it does it's such a rarity, that I've never heard of it. Also what exactly are you going to do to rip them off? Claim you need an operation when you don't. The Dr's will turn round and say, sure we can do it but it's unnecessary, I suggest you have it done privately, we wont cover it. They don't cover cosmetic surgery or anything like that anyway, unless it's for disfiguring injuries. Sounds like this is part and parcel of your system, but I've never heard of it happening outside of your system.

Another interesting factoid is that the amount you pay in national insurance almost never covers the amount you get back in health care, no matter how rich you are (probably because the wealthy only pay 1% NI anyway) the excess is covered as broad taxes. So the wealthy and upper middle classes earning more than £35,000 are covered by their base tax rate. Which means if you do opt for private and it will be the mostly wealthy who do you will then be paying way over the odds.

Fraud is rampant within medicare and medicaid. Check out Skad's link a few pages back. That's the tip of the iceberg. Not only to individuals bilk money out of the system, but thousands of healthcare providers do it too.

 

[demokratickid]

Universal healthcare hasn't taken root because of a Republican controlled congress, 1994-2006, and the Prez, 2001-2009. If there is a democrat in office in '09 and a democratically controlled congress, there will be universal healthcare. I guarantee it.

 

[skadistic]

Second day at work I dropped a heavy box on my toe. Hurt at the time, forgot about it, problem started a while later. Work won't cover it (didn't document the injury when it happened) so I saw a doctor (125 out of pocket) she gives me a script for some anti inflamatories and codeine says soak it / clean it / the ususal and come back if it gets worse.

Couldn't afford to go back. At the time I was living off credit cards trying to keep my brother from having to leave highschool during his senior year and move in with his grandparents. That's when I started trying to get in to the free clinic.

When I finally couldn't take it anymore, I went to the hospital. They wrote off the costs they could, but couldn't write off the doctor's fee. They said wait for the bill in the mail and work out an arangment with him.

I mean the difference between that and just walking into a clinic here in Canada is huge.

Sounds like you made numerous bad choices and have no one but your self to blame for what you want to blame on the American system.

 

[El_Machinae]

Clearly he made some bad choices. But that doesn't stop the fact that his costs were significantly higher. He clearly made an attempt at preventative medicine (paying out of pocket to see a doctor), and preventative medicine is where our system makes many of its savings. But even with a noble attempt at (expensive) preventative services, the US system was still less than ideal.

Hmm. Fair point. ...Actually could you clarify? Basically, it's an opt in thing, where the company takes £1,200 out of your paycheque and buys insurance for you. So if I opted out, I'd get £1,200 more in my paycheque. Are you saying that, if everyone opted out (or, if they didn't do the scheme in the first place), I'd get more than £1,200 more in my paycheque?

Oop, nope, I misunderstood a bit. I thought that the company paid in, and you pay in at a discounted rate. It might not actually be subsidized, then, but merely a pooled package.