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[RD] Why is there so much suffering in the world?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by caketastydelish, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    There is always the possibility that a system is not deterministically chaotic, in that some non deterministic potential for change has not yet been made available but will under future conditions.

    An interesting, imo, question is whether there can be a crucial parameter which at the same time produces change but is not itself accountable (thus the theory attributes the change to something else etc).
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  2. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Then the hair is a matter of adequately accurate observation, no?
     
  3. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Maybe. Or, 'yes', if we're talking about any type of much-smarter entity. To the best of my knowledge, the universe is not actually predictable because quantum events are probabilistic. We know that rolling a d6 a million times will have ones turn out about 1/6th of the time, but there is not actual way to know the exact percentage ahead of time.

    That said, an outside agent that knows how the quantum probabilities will shake out makes the universe much more strongly deterministic.

    That said, I'd also (weakly) suggest that 'predestination' implies some type of knowing causal agent as well. So, if God knows what will happen, it's deterministic. If He is the one that started the ball rolling, it's predestination. Or somesuch. I'm just working off of feels here.
     
  4. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Perhaps:
    Determinism predicts actions
    Predestination predicts outcomes
     
  5. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Actions and inaction are outcomes tho?
     
  6. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    They are outcomes of other actions, but they also produce outcomes. You raise the question of whether a determined action can produce an undetermined result. I would say yes.
     
  7. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    how can you say that animals suffer when both the word and the concept are man-made, though? that is what I tried to say with "humanity is literally the author of all suffering". we may (even this is kind of weak, but let's not resort to qualia arguments here) be able to measure animals experiencing pain or somesuch, but that is not the exact same thing as suffering. for suffering there must be "being" first.
     
  8. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Yeah, but you don't seem a Calvinist.
     
  9. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Ah...pain is a human concept too. Animals don't have "being"? Of course they do.
     
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  10. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    I certainly am not. But I am also not a Catholic or evangelical for that matter. :)
     
  11. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Yeas, but if you reject Calvinist determinism your view on the matter does put in you in the same general category with Catholic works, and who the hell knows about Evangelicals. It's a blanket term anyways.
     
  12. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    pain is indeed a human concept and imho not even measurable properly, as i alluded to in my post. however, we definitely can measure brain response to certain stimuli, which is more than nothing. as for being, that is a difficult question to answer. i definitely think animals are intelligent, and are conscious, and are even self-reflexive. i do not know if they have a concept of being or time that is even comparable to ours.
     
  13. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Not at all. Christianity is all about salvation and what one must do to be saved (eternity with god). For pantheists that isn't an issue.
     
  14. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    I'm not sure that I would agree.
     
  15. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Certainly their sense of self is not the same as ours, but why should that matter?
     
  16. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    With which part?
     
  17. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    You're doing blue I think, so you tell me you.
     
  18. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Pantheism is pretty huge category full of subsets and it is hard to make a simple statement that covers all the possibilities. The idea that god is all in all and has always been so makes salvation in the Christian sense not really an option. This underlying existence is the natural and permanent state of things. To experience god one must "escape" from the illusion of this world's permanence. There is no one path to do so. Neither atheism nor Christianity are excluded.
     
  19. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Christian salvation, as discussed, is more frequently ad hoc cultural than theological.
     
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  20. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Huh? You think so? You are probably closer to it than me.
     

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