Why is this ModMod Not in C2C Already?

[JosEPh_II]

Does this mean that the figures should be displayed in integers only? Or only to one decimal place? Or that the font needs to change to something that lets you see the decimal point?

Any of the above would help. The problem with this particular Building is the length of it's name. Electronic Gaming League takes up a lot of display space. As will Anima Gaming League and some of the Casinos have the same problem. Circus Circus Casino comes to mind as it's the top building in the screenshot.

 

[Thunderbrd]

On the Civic note we do have 2 Maint modifiers that rarely get used:
<iHomeAreaMaintenanceModifier>0</iHomeAreaMaintenanceModifier>
<iOtherAreaMaintenanceModifier>0</iOtherAreaMaintenanceModifier>
We have the occasional Civc that will use the OtherArea modifier as it pertains to "colonies" on a different land mass. But the HomeArea has been basically neglected. I've started to add some of this one to the mix for early Civics. It seems to be a powerful tool that has been laid aside and forgotten.

I'm intrigued. Glad you've found those!

@T-brd, Toffer,
At what level/amount will our Treasury balance "go negative" and roll over? Can a game sustain a treasury of 100 Million? or 1,000 Million? And of course why would we ever want anyone to get that high. Didn't Cainstar recently break it in one of his games?

It's a bit over 2 million. I can and will extend that. There's no way we can do this without extending it. I'm not against better game balance at all but when we go galactic, there's just no way unless I fix this someday. I mean... it WILL go that high and far beyond. There's no way around it.

My plan is to extend the amount of digits we have to work with by as many as we currently have... to use a second integer for a larger scale commerce pool. So for example, we would have every million gold immediately become a Greater Gold and if the total dips to less than a million and a Greater Gold or more exists, it is seamlessly exchanged for a million normal gold. The tricky part will be working with the python and anywhere where the exe might need information on the gold amount. But it should be doable. And will have to be done for culture, research, and probably even espionage. We MAY be able to go as far as we want with just this method applied to the commerces. I'm glad I've waited this long to do anything about it though because not only should some balance measures be enacted first, which are far more difficult to do, or more time consuming to get the full evaluation on anyhow, but also I have a much clearer idea as to how to go about doing this now.

Still... the display issues might be rough for me.

And I'm about to lose a LOT of modding time availability and my first priority here is the building cost recalibrations so that may well take months from here to complete. Then I have to create some examples of diseases for the Outbreaks and Afflictions. And I'll need to very soon after that start working on the XML for the new traits structure - the plans are almost fully complete and just await some of the building evaluations that even just recosting will complete. So I'm going to be doing SO much with XML that it could be over a year's worth of just working XML here. So yeah, some work on these building balances would be awesome. I also think we NEED the Power property to get the modern + eras working at all properly.

 

[JosEPh_II]

It's a bit over 2 million.

SO's game had 36 Million treasury balance already. Maybe you mean 2 Billion? Or do you mean 2 Million per turn?

I thought you had traits ready to roll? Guess I misunderstood where it stood in development.

One thing I need to look further into crime about is this. If the player and AI keeps up with crime from the beginning then there becomes a period where Crime is very easily handled. Then Crime rebounds with a vengeance to hit the slackerds once you hit the Modern era and beyond. I'm still looking to find out why and if there is a trigger effect on both ends, becoming too easy and then too hard. But I also need to have a few more test games with the full Trait set in play. Been using the No Negative Option for a bit vs no Traits at all.

A few more adjustments to Civics yet to do. Then need player interaction to gather data for finalization.

 

[Toffer90]

I think 21,474,836 is the integer overflow limit.

Edit:
I read it in a post by someone like AIAndy or alberts somewhere.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I think 21,474,836 is the integer overflow limit.

Per turn?

 

[Toffer90]

Total.
At least that's the number where city culture overflows.

Depends on the byte size (n) of the stored value, and if it's a signed (a=1) or unsigned (a=0) integer. (signed means the value can be negative)
Max value = 2^(8*n-a)
Looks like city culture is stored as a 4 byte signed value,
2^(8*4-1) = 2 147 483 648

21 474 836 is the highest value the city can have because I assume the dll code multiply it by 100 for some reason, which would bring anything higher to the overflow point.

That TB said it overflows a bit over 2 millions makes me assume the value is: 2 147 483 and that a multiplication by 1000 takes place in the code.

 

[raxo2222]

Total.
At least that's the number where city culture overflows.

Depends on the byte size (n) of the stored value, and if it's a signed (a=1) or unsigned (a=0) integer. (signed means the value can be negative)
Max value = 2^(8*n-a)
Looks like city culture is stored as a 4 byte signed value,
2^(8*4-1) = 2 147 483 648

21 474 836 is the highest value the city can have because I assume the dll code multiply it by 100 for some reason, which would bring anything higher to the overflow point.

I heard somewhere it does that to increase resolution - 1 unit of culture/gold income per turn is treated internally as 100 units.
This way on slow/early game that visible 0.1 units gain/loss of something per turn is actually something - 10 internal units per turn that is.
Basically integer is simulated as float.

 

[Toffer90]

I heard somewhere it does that to increase resolution - 1 unit of culture/gold income per turn is treated internally as 100 units.
This way on slow/early game that visible 0.1 units gain/loss of something per turn is actually something - 10 internal units per turn that is.
Basically integer is simulated as float.

Yes, that is quite accurate.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Total.
At least that's the number where city culture overflows.

Depends on the byte size (n) of the stored value, and if it's a signed (a=1) or unsigned (a=0) integer. (signed means the value can be negative)
Max value = 2^(8*n-a)
Looks like city culture is stored as a 4 byte signed value,
2^(8*4-1) = 2 147 483 648

21 474 836 is the highest value the city can have because I assume the dll code multiply it by 100 for some reason, which would bring anything higher to the overflow point.

That TB said it overflows a bit over 2 millions makes me assume the value is: 2 147 483 and that a multiplication by 1000 takes place in the code.

Good breakdown. I was going by memory and yes, due to the *100 /100 method of increasing decimal modification accuracy some numbers can be closer to 2 million than the absolute total an integer allows.

Even city culture, which is stored as a 'long long', won't be sufficient after a while, so it will still be important to give a second int for added storage there too. That adaptation alone was a pretty intense project.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Good breakdown. I was going by memory and yes, due to the *100 /100 method of increasing decimal modification accuracy some numbers can be closer to 2 million than the absolute total an integer allows.

Even city culture, which is stored as a 'long long', won't be sufficient after a while, so it will still be important to give a second int for added storage there too. That adaptation alone was a pretty intense project.

I may be sounding Obtuse but I want clarification, this is about Per Turn, right?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I may be sounding Obtuse but I want clarification, this is about Per Turn, right?

No, we're talking the total that the integer storage in the code can handle. Period. There are some places going past that because we've already expanded the capacity but it can and will still be exceeded at a not that much higher number. Just a few more digits is all we could add with the previous methods of fixing overflows.

If it gets into overflowing on a per turn storage, that's... that's a LOT for any per turn amount.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Would really like to see Pepper finish putting in his work. Is there some kind of problem?

 

[pepper2000]

Sorry. My girlfriend has been in town for the last couple weeks and I just haven't gotten to it because so much is going on. But on Memorial Day I plan to try again to add the buildings that don't need new terrain.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@pepper2000,

Do Any of your buildings you are going to add reduce Air and Water Pollution, give -x values? Do your buildings for the most part all give +5, 10, 15, 20 or more of any of these categories; Crime, Disease, Air Poll, Water Poll. ? How many give -x Tourism? Do any add +x Tourism ?

Do most give+ or no values of ? What about vs ? Is the slant on the majority of your buildings giving more "bad" than "good" in exchange for ?

Reason I ask is because right now what is in the mod for the late Eras is a horribly heavily weighted set of bldgs that give more and than any or . That give way more Pollution(s), Crime, and Disease than any that reduce these same. Unfortunately past modders have designed their work/Bldgs to give higher and higher Bad values while not even coming close to designing a counter bldg that would "balance" with appropriate Good values. We even have late era workers that do not clean up any of these pollutants but fallout (afaik).

I hope your additions are more balanced. And the same if you are adding Wonders too.

@ Team,
Because of what is in the mod now, it is causing serious game play issues for anyone who reaches the late part of the game. As I go over the Buildings and Properties it becomes more and more evident that no real balance was even planned or at least not in a concrete fashion. (This is observable in the later games that have been posted and I have saved.) To the point where I get a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach over what has been allowed. And allowed to go unchecked for a long long time now.

If the Mod's focus was not so directed towards Warfare were most games end by the Classical/Medieval/Ren Eras due to conquest, then these imbalances would've been seen sooner imho. But we've had no consistency in reaching the late part of the game for many years now.

Now we have added 5 new Eras to go from 10 Eras to 15, a 33% increase, were if you can get a game into this last 1/3rd, then the gameplay implodes upon itself from the lack of using a "level hand" when building/adding into the mod.

It can be "fixed" but it will be a herculean effort. Any Item that adds high levels of anything needs a counter or it need to be pruned back (and sometime seriously so!). And building new "items" (bldgs, Wonder, units, etc.) to counter (with all the art work that is needed) is beyond my skill set. I can prune but I can't plant.

 

[Toffer90]

@ Team... then these imbalances would've been seen sooner imho. But we've had no consistency in reaching the late part of the game for many years now.

I agree with what you're saying, this is nothing new though.
I've considered C2C as very unbalanced for about 8 years now, in other words, since I first discovered the mod. I'm pretty sure most players has discovered this a long time ago too.
Properties is imo still in it's infant stage and does a lot to intensify the imbalance towards the game breaking point.

It's great if you are willing to continue your work on balance, I'm all for pruning down numbers to more reasonable values, it's something I've done a lot in my modmod myself.
If you feel a building should be radically changed (name/purpose) or removed/pruned, it will probably be OK, just remember to bring it up for discussion first.

 

[Thunderbrd]

IMO, it's not always just the values given, but the building 'system' as a whole in a certain section. For example, the manufacturing buildings... there's major problems with the way the whole system is setup for those. I don't have time to itemize how it's a problem but suffice to say... there's a problem. There are numerous other regions to address.

The way this gets so 'out of balance' is that all of this has been done without spreadsheeting so as to be able to compile predicted amounts of yields and commerces at various stages of the game. Even if that proves impossible, it would at least help to test some various 'design standards' and theories of approach.

Thus why I've made beginning such charting to be my highest priority. It should eventually reveal where and how we can and should correct the mod balances into the mid-late regions of the game.

 

[pepper2000]

I know these balance issues are pretty major in the late game (Industrial and later), but I find it hard to know how to fix them because normal games seldom get to the Industrial Era, let alone Nanotech and later. I've generally felt there that happiness, health, and disease are not really problems in the late game, while more buildings to reduce crime and pollution would be welcome. I've added a few.

There should be significant scope to add balancing effects to existing buildings. For instance, if unhappiness is a problem and there are not enough buildings that add happiness, then there are plenty of places were happiness effects could be added/enhanced.

The biggest late-game balance issue I experience is that production is too low, starting around the Atomic Era.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

And building new "items" (bldgs, Wonder, units, etc.) to counter (with all the art work that is needed) is beyond my skill set. I can prune but I can't plant.

Actually you probably can. It just has not been explained to you how to yet. I have probably said this before but it might be useful to others if I repeat it.

This is for buildings only.

Set-up

It is always best to work in the Modules areas first so you have it isolated on your machine while you are working on it.

1. Create a folder in the Assets/Modules area with your name eg Joseph_II.
   
   
2. Copy the buildings schema file (C2C_CIV4BuildingsSchema.XML) from Assets/Xml/Buildings into this folder and rename it eg Joseph_II_CIV4BuildingsSchema.XML.
   
   This is very important. If you leave it with the old name you can cause problems for other mods especially when the main schema file is updated and yours has not.
   
   
3. Copy any Art Defines file and Game Text from the same folder level. This should get the path to the schema files right, i.e. enough "../" in the reference.
   
   This is because the art schema file is not kept in your folders but referenced where it resides in core. This and the Game Text schema are the only ones done this way as it took a lot of work to make it work.
   
   
4. Remove all but one entry in those files. You will replace them latter but having them there wont break anything and gives you a starting point when editing them.
   
   
5. Copy any Building Class and Building Infos file into your folder keeping only one entry for reference. Rename the schema file reference from C2C_ to your name.

You are now ready to do the actual work​

Art - buildings

There is no need for anything beyond a button to start with and there are many button packs in the Graphics forum which contain hundreds of buttons we have not used. Just get a button from there that you think it OK. It can always be changed later.

In the Art Defines file for each building add the following entry where name is your building name

        <BuildingArtInfo>
        <Type>ART_DEF_BUILDING_name</Type>
            <LSystem/>
            <bAnimated/>
            <fScale/>
            <fInterfaceScale/>
            <NIF>Art/empty.nif</NIF>
            <KFM/>
            <Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/name.dds</Button>
        </BuildingArtInfo>

Building Class XML

The building class file is the one that defines whether the building is a Global Wonder, a Team Wonder, a National Wonder, or a normal building.

Default of normal building XML where name is the name of your building.

        <BuildingClassInfo>
            <Type>BUILDINGCLASS_name</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_name</Description>
            <iMaxGlobalInstances>-1</iMaxGlobalInstances>
            <iMaxTeamInstances>-1</iMaxTeamInstances>
            <iMaxPlayerInstances>-1</iMaxPlayerInstances>
            <DefaultBuilding>BUILDING_name</DefaultBuilding>
        </BuildingClassInfo>

If iMaxGlobalInstances, iMaxTeamInstances and iMaxPlayerInstances are -1 then it is a normal building.

If only iMaxPlayerInstances is 1 then it is a National Wonder.

if iMaxTeamInstances and iMaxPlayerInstances are 1 and iMaxGlobalInstances is -1 then it is a Team Wonder.

If all are 1 then it is a Global Wonder.​

 

[JosEPh_II]

@DH,
Thank you for the outline.

@Team,
We have a later game building called Ground Scrubbers. It costs 100 and reduces Water Pollution by 200 (which at it time in the game is Good), But.... for some reason the maker decided that it should also give a +100 to Air pollution (this is very bad). It is buildings such as this one that I want to change immediately. The +100 Air actually needs to be a -100 Air pollution.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Just was reminded of this from the Tips sub forum on Pollution:

Dancing Hoshuld wrote:
(Said using your best salesperson impersonation.)

Is Pollution getting you down? Are your skies smoggy and water yucky?

Then we have a solution to your pollution. In just two steps you will see more blue skies.

Step 1: Get Aesthetic Tradition.

Step 2: Send your workers on holiday to the city with all that pollution.

The workers, having a fine sense of beauty, wont just sit around they will, just by being there and doing nothing, clean up that nasty pollution.

1. is Aesthetic tradition available to get during the Whole course of the game play?
2. Or does it go Obsolete at some point?
3. has this been tested to see if works in the New later Eras?
4. if so what can be done to tell the AI Civs to send workers to these "bad" cities to do their passive job of clean up?

If Aesthetic Tradition is available in the new Information Era then I can test it by sending workers to some of SO's cities in the save game he posted and I have been using as a data mine. If they can remove Black Skies on down to Smog 1 or reduce/remove the Global warming chain then there is some counter balance in the mod now.

If Aesthetics Tradition Is Not available to get, then it needs to be figured out how Any AI or player can get it in the late game.