Why Islam is a problem for the integration of immigrants

Timsup2nothin · Apr 1, 2017

Traitorfish said:
I'm going to assume that you count yourself in that 1-in-1000?

1000 in 1000 do, generally speaking.

NovaKart · Apr 1, 2017

There are a lot of Muslim immigrants who are either not religious or only sometimes go to the mosque. It does seem strange to me when I read about people who seem to have become radicalized quickly. Like you'll hear about someone who carried out an attack and people who talked to the news who knew them in the past said they seemed non-religious and totally normal.

Honor said:
As an irreligious human who grew up in a muslim country in the Middle East, then spent 1 year in Germany and 6 years in the US getting my degrees, I can confirm that the us vs them feeling has nothing to do with mosques. Never been to one. Never had my own tribe in the West, was completely immersed in the culture, had almost exclusively white friends, had no language barrier, etc. I felt off the whole time. Your culture was just too alien to me, and still is. It is not about the superficial stuff; the difference was more profound and prompted me to come up with my own mental models for interpreting it, while causing me a great deal of emotional pain, because I simply could not find that thing that was missing that I needed to nourish my spirit. Emotionally I simply was not allowed to exist the way that I was. Your culture rejected it.

It's not the mosques. What is being said there is merely a symptom of a more fundamental divide in my opinion.

I've had the experience the other way, raised in a western Christian country but lived for years in Muslim countries. I almost exclusively have local friends and don't go to church. I've never had the expectation that I would be considered like a local or to integrate completely so it's different perhaps from people who have gone as immigrants to western countries. It hasn't really caused me emotional pain but it can be culturally isolating and unfortunately I haven't found the other western people I come across to be that friendly for the most part since they seem to have their own social circles.

Ryika said:
That may work for Jordan, but Nigeria polls 76% favorable views of the USA (with 12% unfavorable).
http://www.pewglobal.org/2015/06/23/1-americas-global-image/

It simply doesn't make sense that people would think favorably of the USA, while at the same time seeing them as a threat to their well-being so much that it makes them think that terror-attacks are justified to "defend Islam".

So now you've moved on from an indirect connection that you have no proof of to an even more indirect connection that you still have no proof of, just to be able to ignore that the direct connection that terrorists frequently say is the reason they do things for.

A lot of Nigerians are Christians. I don't have the stats here, but I think maybe it's 50/50 or something like that. I wonder if they only questioned Nigerian Muslims about suicide bombings.

Berzerker · Apr 1, 2017

NovaKart said:
There are a lot of Muslim immigrants who are either not religious or only sometimes go to the mosque. It does seem strange to me when I read about people who seem to have become radicalized quickly. Like you'll hear about someone who carried out an attack and people who talked to the news who knew them in the past said they seemed non-religious and totally normal.

Nothing more zealous than a recent convert

and it aint limited to religion, when I quit smoking cigarettes I had an adverse reaction to other smokers I never had even before I took up the addiction.

RomanKing · Apr 1, 2017

Terxpahseyton said:
Not so much Islam itself, but this cherishing of being different and viewing the mainstream as something hostile and lesser is what differentiates Muslims from other immigrants. And I think this is an important reasons why Germany has little problems with Poles or Vietnamese, while a lot with immigrants from Islamic countries.

The reason why there's conflict in EVERY part of the non-muslim world that comes into contact with muslims is because most muslims are radicals. Only liberals are naive enough to be so child-minded to think that millions of muslims from 3rd world countries can successfully integrate into Western Society. muslims do not magically change deeply held beliefs that they were taught since they were thigh high when they cross a Western border..

Here's just a few things that the "religion of peace" commonly believes in when it comes to assimilation.

Assimilation

Muslims have highest claimed disability rates in the UK (24% of men, 21% of women)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Muslim-students-killing-Islam-40-want-Sharia-law.html

Pakistani Muslims in the UK are four times more likely to be unemployed than Hindus. Indian Muslims are twice as likely to be unemployed as Indian Hindus.
http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/feb/20/race.immigrationpolicy&date=2012-12-05

Policy Exchange: 1 in 4 Muslims in the UK have never heard of the Holocaust;
Only 34% of British Muslims believe the Holocaust ever happened.
http://www.imaginate.uk.com/MCC01_SURVEY/Site%20Download.pdf
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

Policy Exchange: 51% of British Muslims believe a woman cannot marry a non-Muslim
Only 51% believe a Muslim woman may marry without a guardian's consent
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

Policy Exchange: Up to 52% of British Muslims believe a Muslim man is entitled to up to four wives
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

Policy Exchange: 61% of British Muslims want homosexuality punished
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

NOP Research: 62% of British Muslims do not believe in the protection of free speech;
Only 3% adopt a "consistently pro-freedom of speech line"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

ICM Poll: 58% of British Muslims believe insulting Islam should result in criminal prosecution
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Pew Global (2006): Only 7% of British Muslims think of themselves as British first (81% say 'Muslim' rather than 'Briton')
http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/254.pdf

Policy Exchange (2006): 31% Muslims in Britain identify more with Muslims in other countries than with non-Muslim Brits.
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20together%20-%20jan%2007.pdf

BBC (2007) 74% of young Muslims prefer women wear the veil (compared to 28% of those over 55).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6309983.stm

Die Welt (2012): 46% of Muslims in Germany hope there will eventually be more Muslims than Christians in Germany.
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article108659406/Tuerkische-Migranten-hoffen-auf-muslimische-Mehrheit.html

Ipsos MORI: Muslims are 3 times as likely as Christians to believe that their religion is the only way.
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/religion.still.matters.global.survey.finds/28257.htm

Pew Research (2011): Muslim-Americans four times more likely to say that women should not work outside the home.
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/section-5-political-opinions-and-social-values/

Pew Research (2007): 26% of Muslim-Americans want to be distinct (43% support assimilation)
http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

Pew Research (2011): 20% of Muslim-Americans want to be distinct (56% support assimilation)
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/

Pew Research (2011): 49% of Muslim-Americans say they are "Muslim first" (26% American first)
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/

Pew Research (2011): 21% of Muslim-Americans say there is a fair to great amount of support for Islamic extremism in their community.
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/section-6-terrorism-concerns-about-extremism-foreign-policy/

ICM Poll: 11% of British Muslims find violence for political ends acceptable
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist

Wenzel Strategies (2012): 58% of Muslim-Americans believe criticism of Islam or Muhammad is not protected free speech under the First Amendment.
45% believe mockers of Islam should face criminal charges (38% said they should not).
12% of Muslim-Americans believe blaspheming Islam should be punishable by death.
43% of Muslim-Americans believe people of other faiths have no right to evangelize Muslims.
32% of Muslims in America believe that Sharia should be the supreme law of the land.
http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2012/10/31/sixty-percent-of-us-muslims-reject-freedom-of-expression/
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012/10/poll-nearly-half-of-us-muslims-believe.html

Pew Research (2013): "At least half' of Muslims surveyed believed polygamy is morally acceptable.
"Muslims in most countries surveyed say that a wife should always obey her husband." (including 93% in Indonesia and 65% in Turkey).
Only 32% of Muslims in Indonesia say a woman should have the right to divorce her husband (22% in Egypt, 26% in Pakistan and 60% in Russia).
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

Die Presse (2013): 1 in 3 Muslims in Austria say it is not possible to be a European and a Muslim. 22% oppose democracy
http://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2013/12/03/survey-on-islam-in-austria-18-of-muslims-support-death-sentence-for-apostasy-21-9-oppose-democracy/

WZB Berlin Social Science Center: 45% of Muslims in Europe say Jews cannot be trusted.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4092/europe-islamic-fundamentalism

Vancouver Sun (2015): 42% of Canadian Muslims agree that Islam is "irreconcilable" with the West.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/193969

Anti-Defamation League (2015): 55% of Muslims in Europe are anti-Semitic - approximately three times higher than Europeans in general.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/06/30/adl-poll-shows-more-than-half-of-western-european-muslims-harbor-antisemitic-beliefs/#

Middle East Forum (2015): Muslims comprise less than 1% of the population in the United States but 9% of prison inmates.
http://www.meforum.org/blog/2015/08/islam-prison

Middle East Forum (2015): Muslims in France comprise 12% of the population, but 70% of prisoners.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR2008042802560.html
(Other reports range from 40-60%: http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21707230-should-jails-segregate-jihadists-caged-fervour)

Middle East Forum (2015): Muslims in the Netherlands comprise 4% of the population but 20% of prisoners. Muslims in France comprise 10% of the population, but 70% of prisoners.
http://www.meforum.org/blog/2015/08/islam-prison

2015 (BBChttp://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31794599

2016 (Sun News): Muslims comprise 5% of population in Britain but 20% of High Security inmates
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6884172/One-in-five-danger-lags-is-a-muslim.html

2016 (The Economist): Muslims comprise 5% of population in Britain but 15% of general prison inmates
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6884172/One-in-five-danger-lags-is-a-muslim.html

ICM Poll (2016): 31% of British Muslims believe polygamy is acceptable. 18% believe homosexuality should remain legal.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-quarter-support-areas-UK-run-sharia-law.html

35% of prisoners in Belgium are Muslim, compared with 6% of the general population.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36348389

University of Munster Study (2016): 32% of Turks living in Germany say that "Muslims should strive to a societal order like than in the time of Muhammad."
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8321/germany-turks-integration

Institut Montaigue (2016): 1 in 4 French Muslims support wearing the full burka. 80% support halal options in public schools.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/711899/One-in-four-French-Muslims-SUPPORT-full-face-veil

EEOC (2015): Muslims in the United States make up 1% of the population but 40% of workplace discrimination complaints.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...laces-safe-for-muslims-and-deterring-lawsuits

National Centre for Scientific Research (2017): 32% of young Muslims in France adhere to 'fundamentalist views.' 33% believe violence for 'ideological' goals is acceptable. 24% of young Muslims do not condemn the Charlie Hebdo massacre, and 21% do not condemn the Bataclan massacre.
http://www.westmonster.com/french-e...bshell-extremism-report-until-after-election/
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/03/21/study-third-muslim-france-fundamentalist/
https://lejournal.cnrs.fr/nos-blogs/face-au-terrorisme-la-recherche-en-action/une-vaste-enquete-sur-la-radicalite-chez-les/

Spoiler Honor Killings :

RomanKing · Apr 1, 2017

Their opinions on terrorism and violence in defense of islam/sharia.

Spoiler Terrorism :

Broken_Erika · Apr 1, 2017

Palestinians aren't too friendly towards the states it seems, at least they have a reason other than the usual fundamentalist B.S.

Ajidica · Apr 1, 2017

RomanKing said:
The reason why there's conflict in EVERY part of the non-muslim world that comes into contact with muslims is because most muslims are radicals.

What makes someone a "radical"? Was Yasser Arafat a radical? What do you believe was the source of his radicalism?
Was the Ayatollah Khomeni a radical? What do you believe was the source of his radicalism?
Is Jamal Khashoggi a radical? What was the source of his radicalism?

Only liberals are naive enough to be so child-minded to think that millions of muslims from 3rd world countries can successfully integrate into Western Society.

Is Jordan a third world country? Is Morocco a third world country? Is Indonesia a third world country?
Furthermore, in your mind what constitutes the "third world"?
If you are looking a regions where conflicts are to determine whether people from those regions can integrate into "western society", what then is your take on people from the Kivus who wish to live in America?

Timsup2nothin · Apr 2, 2017

Man, I thought after the last one got permabanned people would figure out that the "big wall o' links" posting style isn't popular here.

Agent327 · Apr 2, 2017

And why on Earth would you assume that?

El_Machinae said:
That doesn't answer the question, does it? It's even unhelpful. You might think you're smarter than normal, but it doesn't address any underlying concern.

Do you liken the acceptance of suicide-bombing civilians with people who would (say) just wanna glass the ME?

And here I was thinking you were asking an honest question in order to get an honest reply...

Timsup2nothin said:
Keep in mind that intelligent is a relative thing. In any pair of people, one is more intelligent than the other, if you have access to sufficiently precise measurement. If you place an arbitrary line between this particular person and the next one above them and then say "everyone below the line we will call stupid" you are trying to remove the relative nature of what you are measuring...and the line, no matter where you put it, is still arbitrary.

Now, 'educated' is an entirely different matter. It is possible to be educated, almost no matter where you fall on that spectrum of intelligence. It is also possible to be ignorant...of some matters or all matters. I may be the smartest guy in the room, but if it is a room full of botanists I will be the least educated in regards to plants. Education is not a direct reflection of intelligence.

Are we obligated to educate ourselves, at least in matters upon which we are called to give opinions? I'd say so, and that applies no matter where we fall on the scale of intelligence. I would not claim that intelligence qualifies me to give an opinion on the identity of a plant in that room full of botanists. To give that opinion I would feel obligated to educate myself first.

Yes, I believe we are obliged to educate ourselves on a subject instead of simply shouting our 'opinions' on whatever catches our attention at any particular moment. I think that's what intelligent people should do, at least. and then there's people like this:

RomanKing said:
The reason why there's conflict in EVERY part of the non-muslim world that comes into contact with muslims is because most muslims are radicals.

Two unfounded claims don't make a truth, as far as I know:

1) there isn't conflict in every part of the non-Muslim world
2) most Muslims aren't radicals at all.

Timsup2nothin · Apr 2, 2017

Agent327 said:
And why on Earth would you assume that?

Very good point. I should have said "hoped" rather than "thought."

RomanKing · Apr 2, 2017

Ajidica said:
What makes someone a "radical"? Was Yasser Arafat a radical? What do you believe was the source of his radicalism?

Yes and don't care.

Ajidica said:
Was the Ayatollah Khomeni a radical? What do you believe was the source of his radicalism?

Yes and don't care.

Ajidica said:
Is Jamal Khashoggi a radical? What was the source of his radicalism?

I don't know enough about him to make that determination.

If muslim radicals want to declare us their enemy and attack us then they can die. The crusaders understood how this works. Why can't you?

Ajidica said:
Is Jordan a third world country? Is Morocco a third world country? Is Indonesia a third world country?

Yes - they're all 3rd world countries.

Ajidica said:
Furthermore, in your mind what constitutes the "third world"?

I'm not going to bother answering such a ridiculous question.

Ajidica said:
If you are looking a regions where conflicts are to determine whether people from those regions can integrate into "western society", what then is your take on people from the Kivus who wish to live in America?

They can stay in Africa with their own people where they belong.

And "regions of conflict" isn't the determining factor in whether they are fit to be allowed into Western societies or not.

Timsup2nothin said:
Man, I thought after the last one got permabanned people would figure out that the "big wall o' links" posting style isn't popular here.

I agree, it's quite evident that facts are not popular here.

Timsup2nothin · Apr 2, 2017

RomanKing said:
I agree, it's quite evident that facts and common sense are not popular here.

Posting a list of links, many of them to sites that no doubt contain nothing but unverified fake news or just outright mad blogger ravings, is neither factual nor a display of common sense. It is a pointless waste of bits and pixels and should be considered spamming.

RomanKing · Apr 2, 2017

Timsup2nothin said:
Posting a list of links, many of them to sites that no doubt contain nothing but unverified fake news or just outright mad blogger ravings, is neither factual nor a display of common sense.

How anti-intellectual of you. Don't research, remain ignorant, and reject any information that doesn't already conform to your decaying worldview.

After reading that I couldn't care less about your opinions from here on out, since you've made it perfectly clear that you have nothing of substance to say, since reading and research are a waste of your time. Thanks for the heads up.

Timsup2nothin said:
It is a pointless waste of bits and pixels and should be considered spamming.

And of course calls for censorship. The last desperate resort of increasingly irrelevant ideologues who's ideas have already been defeated.

Timsup2nothin · Apr 2, 2017

RomanKing said:
How anti-intellectual of you.

LOL...you are saying I'm anti-intellectual and proposing as evidence that I don't examine lists of links posted on a game forum by someone who has done nothing to earn my respect. You think poring through a list o' links provided by someone using an anonymous screen name is RESEARCH???

I am anti-dingbat, not anti-intellectual...and all previous "big wall o' links" posters have been serious dingbats...or they've dropped the annoying habit right quick.

RomanKing · Apr 2, 2017

Timsup2nothin said:
LOL...you are saying I'm anti-intellectual and proposing as evidence that I don't examine lists of links posted on a game forum by someone who has done nothing to earn my respect. You think poring through a list o' links provided by someone using an anonymous screen name is RESEARCH???

You don't consider opinion polls conducted by various international organizations across many countires to be a form of research?

How anti-intellectual.

Timsup2nothin said:
I am anti-dingbat, not anti-intellectual...and all previous "big wall o' links" posters have been serious dingbats...or they've dropped the annoying habit right quick.

As you've already stated, you'd rather believe in your shattered worldview. The one that I doubt will still be around in few years. If that's what you prefer go right ahead, I couldn't care less. People who hold such opinions have already lost politically anyway.

I'm also not entirely sure what constitutes a ding-bat to you; someone who posts evidence presumably, but at this point I really don't care about that either.

Timsup2nothin · Apr 2, 2017

RomanKing said:
You don't consider opinion polls collected by various international organizations across many countires to be a form of research?

Were there some of those buried in your big list o' links? Who would know that? Who here do you think you have impressed enough that they would be expected to care about your sources?

RomanKing · Apr 2, 2017

Timsup2nothin said:
Who here do you think you have impressed enough that they would be expected to care about your sources?

Impressed? Lol, if you think I care about impressing anyone here you're sorely mistaken.

Timsup2nothin · Apr 2, 2017

RomanKing said:
Impressed? Lol, if you think I care about impressing anyone here you're sorely mistaken.

LOL...that you don't care what people here think of you was apparent early on. The big question is why you keep seeking their acknowledgement and cluttering up threads with big lists o' links that it is obvious that no one can be bothered looking at instead of going back to Bretbart or wherever it is that you find them.

RomanKing · Apr 2, 2017

Opinions that don't fit into your dead worldview really drive you mad with rage don't they?

Timsup2nothin · Apr 2, 2017

RomanKing said:
Opinions that don't fit into your dead worldview really drive you mad with rage don't they?

LOL...if you think people who are "mad with rage" will just type at you perhaps you need to put down the big lists o' links and get out more.

Why Islam is a problem for the integration of immigrants

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