[RD] Why Men Need to be Involved in the #MeToo Movement

[inthesomeday]

@inthesomeday : You have a very different take on the situation, but I can't say that I agree with any of it. You're advocating for almost complete anarchy.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Lemon Merchant]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Please keep in mind that this is an RD thread.

 

[warpus]

Whereas in my experience the people getting high on the self congratulatory magnitude of their own sheer objective rationalism by invoking courtroom metaphors to describe their own opinions tend towards asking stupid things.

Things like "why didn't you report it back then" or "why didn't you fight" or "you just want to profit" or "you just want to ruin their life". Ya know, the sorta thing that reveals way more about the ignorance of whichever Captain Logic is "just asking questions" and "hearing both sides" than the person who they're interrogating.

I don't really understand what quoting morons really helps us achieve here. I mean yeah, obviously there are morons out there saying stupid things. That's always been the case, even with bland non-controversial topics.

In some contexts due process is important. In others it's not. Makes sense, right?

 

[Arwon]

If you're not administering an aspect of a judicial instuition, due process isn't really a thing. "The court of public opinion" isn't real. Talking about "due process" with regards to the public layperson reacting to an issue is entirely nonsensical.

 

[red_elk]

Courts become corrupt, democracy is moral, mobs are democratic

Mob intelligence equals to the intelligence of its dumbest member.
As for democracy, one of its main attributes is separate judiciary branch of power.

 

[red_elk]

If you're not administering an aspect of a judicial instuition, due process isn't really a thing. "The court of public opinion" isn't real. Talking about "due process" with regards to the public layperson reacting to an issue is entirely nonsensical.

I think by "due process" people simply meant that no-one should be accused without proper evidence.

 

[Hygro]

Mob intelligence equals to the intelligence of its dumbest member.

Swap "dumbest" with "dominant"

 

[inthesomeday]

Please keep in mind that this is an RD thread.

Sorry. Rather, yes I am advocating anarchy.

 

[warpus]

If you're not administering an aspect of a judicial instuition, due process isn't really a thing. "The court of public opinion" isn't real. Talking about "due process" with regards to the public layperson reacting to an issue is entirely nonsensical.

Why? If I turn on the TV and news person says "Arwon Johnson has been accused of murder by officials in Alabama today"

My first thought is probably along the lines of: "I wonder what conclusions about this case the experts will reach by examining all the related evidence, as it will probably be my best bet at understanding whether he's actually guilty or not". I will also feel bad for the remaining family members and friends involved, but in the end I want to know how the legal battle shakes out and what happens in the court of law.

If you're just annoyed that people are using incorrect terminology or whatever, then that's a completely different objection than the one I thought you were making (I initially thought it was a moral objection, not a literary one) so you can probably disregard our entire exchange

Sorry. Rather, yes I am advocating anarchy.

It feels weird to be stating the obvious, but with anarchy case sexual harassment will probably increase.

 

[Hygro]

@Lemon Merchant there's a complete disconnect between social incentives and public discourse and the public discourse which seeks to solve this gap instead widens it further.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

@Lemon Merchant there's a complete disconnect between social incentives and public discourse and the public discourse which seeks to solve this gap instead widens it further.

I think I can agree with that.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Are you referring to false accusation? Because if you are then you and I have very different concepts of value. But then we already knew that so I don’t know why I keep replying to you.

I was referring to rape itself obviously. False accusations suck, but they're not torture tier. Rape falls somewhere on the torture spectrum in my mind, as in it can be worse than some torture, but probably not the most extreme war crime stuff.

As such, police report ASAP whenever it occurs. And it doesn't need to be a media dog and pony show.

Ah yes, the objective and justice-serving police force.

Still better than using social media to ruin somebody w/o evidence.

Is that how you’ve chosen to interpret what I’ve said? That’s pretty silly.

Yet that's the exact function of public allegations of actions w/o the supporting evidence.

The thing is, *actually false* accusations of sexual assault just aren't very common and the idea that they are is a pernicious myth. And by the time accusations are deemed credible enough by serious news outlets, they've been filtered by editorial judgement and legal scrutiny.

That's going to need some evidence. I've seen pretty wide estimates for how many accusations are false, and those are pretty varied. Wiki lists 2-10%, even at 2% or less you need due process and really shouldn't be releasing names until there's evidence. Sexual harassment absent evidence is much less credible than rape allegations, I've seen people claim that being stared at is "sexual harassment", which is pretty different from someone requesting bodies as a currency...

I see no reason to give news outlets benefit of doubt on editorial judgment and legal scrutiny when major ones are proven liars without exception in the US. It wouldn't surprise me if Australia were better.

Well since I’m talking to you I feel comfortable coming out and saying I don’t like the concept of courts altogether, or convictions that go with them, and that I think mob justice is the only form of moral justice. So I guess sometimes, but it doesn’t really matter.

Ah, I am not in the slightest advocating that!

The two above quotes are incoherent, and as a position mob justice is disgusting. Any improvement to the legal system should make use of evidence that can be verified.

Hm, okay. I think you honestly chose a terrible example because in this situation your parents WERE hitting you, you just said so yourself, and so they were literally guilty of exactly what your brother (the accusing victim without evidence) said they were, and ultimately nothing was done about it because the authority your brother told (naturally, as authorities do) did nothing about it.

What's your standard for how much force is too much?

Things like "why didn't you report it back then" or "why didn't you fight" or "you just want to profit" or "you just want to ruin their life".

These are tangential to the concept of due process. That said, while browbeating an emotionally damaged person for not reporting earlier is the opposite of useful, it really would be useful to take a more constructive approach to making people more comfortable reporting rapes immediately. Doing so generates overwhelming evidence.

Of course you still run into trouble with the "both people were drunk" scenario and one or both doesn't remember the next day, but at least you'll have the correct people on record...

 

[Lexicus]

Courts become corrupt, democracy is moral, mobs are democratic

Does that include this mob, or...?


(disgusting graphic violence, racism)

Spoiler :

 

[inthesomeday]

I was referring to rape itself obviously. False accusations suck, but they're not torture tier. Rape falls somewhere on the torture spectrum in my mind, as in it can be worse than some torture, but probably not the most extreme war crime stuff.

Okay yes I agree. Rape is probably one of the worst things somebody can do to another person, barring like... human experimentation maybe?

As such, police report ASAP whenever it occurs. And it doesn't need to be a media dog and pony show.

But what you don’t understand here is that women simply cannot trust police or courts to bring them justice in sexual assault cases.

Actually, take this into account: I’d imagine you’ll ask for statistics here about something or other but let’s pretend none exist. Let’s pretend police and the state are 100% proven to bring justice every time. Regardless of their track record, if women don’t trust the police, who are you to judge the other venues they seek justice through? Do you really think that false accusations, which occur at an almost inconsequential rate, are a big enough problem compared to sexual assault victims feeling unsafe to bring their accusations to the police, even if the police were 100% successful (which obviously they aren’t)?

I think it shows immense disrespect to disregard the mistrust among sexual assault victims towards the state and to invalidate their accusations unless they follow the narrow pathway to “justice” provided by the police and courts.

Still better than using social media to ruin somebody w/o evidence.

I disagree, because you are acting on the fringe and minute possibility that the victim is lying. Put yourself in a victim’s shoes, one who doesn’t trust the state system— which is “better”, an ineffective government that you fear may lead you into even more danger, or a proven effective method of bringing your predator to justice? Social media accusation is proven to be effective, while for many the integrity of the state “justice” program is not. You, as in some random guy who may have never experienced sexual assault in his life, do not get to make moral judgements on how victims should or should not speak out against their perpetrators.

The two above quotes are incoherent,

I directed them at Lexicus who probably has more familiarity with the theoretical roots of the positions, which I have no patience to break down right now.

and as a position mob justice is disgusting.

As a position state “justice” is disgusting. See I can do it too!

Any improvement to the legal system should make use of evidence that can be verified.

See I advocate abolition of the legal system

What's your standard for how much force is too much?

In what context? Parents hitting their children? Any amount. It should never happen.

 

[inthesomeday]

Does that include this mob, or...?


(disgusting graphic violence, racism)

Spoiler :

This mob’s justice was about the same as the court’s justice at the time. Subtract the courts, however, and the system that constructed them, and I guarantee this mob wouldn’t have arrived at this conclusion.

C’mon Lex think bigger picture.

 

[Hygro]

This mob’s justice was about the same as the court’s justice at the time. Subtract the courts, however, and the system that constructed them, and I guarantee this mob wouldn’t have arrived at this conclusion.

C’mon Lex think bigger picture.

None of this is true.

 

[Lexicus]

This mob’s justice was about the same as the court’s justice at the time. Subtract the courts, however, and the system that constructed them, and I guarantee this mob wouldn’t have arrived at this conclusion.

C’mon Lex think bigger picture.

I mean, you understand that the purpose of that mob was to enforce a racial caste system? I'm unaware of any theory of white supremacy that says courts are necessary to construct and enforce such a system through violence.

 

[inthesomeday]

I mean, you understand that the purpose of that mob was to enforce a racial caste system? I'm unaware of any theory of white supremacy that says courts are necessary to construct and enforce such a system through violence.

That’s not what I mean either. The courts are a symptom of capitalism. So is white supremacy.

 

[Lexicus]

That’s not what I mean either. The courts are a symptom of capitalism. So is white supremacy.

I hate to tell you this, but both courts and white supremacy predate capitalism, the former by millennia, the latter by at least a century.

 

[Kyriakos]

They should be required to use a second tag as well, #maletoo