[RD] Why Men Need to be Involved in the #MeToo Movement

[Gori the Grey]

A good man should not have to re-evaluate his behavior and position in society. A good man is already secure in himself and also has the ability to tune out the shrill screams of protest that erupt with every new movement and see more clearly into the heart of the matter. A good man can appreciate and identify the truth because a good man is already honest with himself and the world. A good man has never done the things the bad man has because a good man is always respectful of others. A good man weighs the evidence and never jumps to a conclusion of guilt or innocent no matter how popular the verdict may be. A good man doesn't need an angry mob to show him what slime is, nor will a good man ignore the pleas of a true victim.

I like how this formulates things. I'd just make this one tweak to it, to make it my own, and my answer to LM's opening question. I'd soften the opening line. There's nothing wrong with re-evaluating one's behavior. But that self-evaluation can be conducted pretty rapidly in this case by "a good man." I'm good (in this respect): I've never sexually harassed or assaulted a woman. I know that about myself. That's a simple fact about my personal history. So when the #MeToo movement emerged (or as Manfred observes, when this overall sentiment first emerged), I was able to reap the reward of that virtue, which is, as Karpius has it here, to be "secure in myself," secure of not being accused, of having given no woman a pretext to accuse me. I recognize that there could be the possibility of a false accusation motivated by something else, but (since I'm not a celebrity), I regard that possibility as vanishingly small, so I don't fret about it.

So, LM, I haven't been made to feel uncomfortable by the #MeToo movement. I have as many women as men in my workplace, and some of them are ardent feminists, but, perhaps because I project security on this issue (or perhaps just because they are mature people), I haven't felt shouted down, or made to feel guilty simply for being a man--which I know are the extremes you are concerned about.

 

[warpus]

The #metoo movement seems to be for the most part dedicated to certain aspects of social media. I feel like I don't see 99.99% of it. In the first couple days I saw some of my friends post #metoo. It made me feel horrible for them. How many other friends, both male and female, went through something like this and are just too afraid to say anything? Some people will just not say anything because they will feel shame. Some will not say anything because it's just not easy to talk about. Some people will not say a thing because they feel others will judge them. A lot of men will stay quiet because society places certain expectations on them, and in this case it seems we're expected to stay quiet. I've had to deal with a minor case of sexual harassment, and I have not told a single person about it ever. There must be so many more people just not speaking out, and dealing with sexual harassment on a regular basis. As a decently sized and shaped man I feel like I'm fortunate enough in that most people just don't mess with me, so I have that going for myself. But a lot of people don't

So yeah, during the first couple days, I saw some stuff on social media here and there. But now for weeks I've heard nothing, aside from random articles about some big shot actor or director being accused of harassment. So if I had to guess the movement just seems to be sticking to parts of social media I usually don't frequent, so as a result I just don't see anything. Which seems like a shame, because to me at least it seems that the movement could be more effective and more inclusive

It does seem to be empowering some women to speak out, which is great. Maybe it will lead to more people reporting this stuff when it happens

 

[Gori the Grey]

Oh, yeah, CFC is my only social media. I'm not on Twitter, or Facebook or anything. So I'm sure that's why I'm insulated from most of the more extreme manifestations of the movement.

 

[inthesomeday]

I don't follow the online stuff that closely and it's kind of white noise now, but the one article that really got me was the one accusing aziz ansari. Fortunately a ton of people already defended him. But I am not going to raise my girls to be helpless victims in that regard. If they don't want to do something, say no and say it firmly. Men pursuing women romantically is not assault.

The girl in that situation did say no. Firmly. Repeatedly.

When it's people like you asking them with a preconceived notion that there's definitely something wrong with them, their masculinity and the way they are?

Well... yes, men have power over women in patriarchal society. This is not so much an assumption as a fact. If you are a man, you definitely have power over women— I’m a man myself and do in fact constantly evaluate my own behavior to make sure I don’t perpetuate sexism.

When everything but complete agreement with your position is considered a failure that's met with more shaming and blaming? I'd say yeah, that's a bad thing.

Shaming and blaming sexists is a bad thing, then?

The reality is, plenty of men have already spoken out about #metoo on social media, their message? There's nothing wrong with them, they're not the ones acting like that. Of course that message has been squarely ignored, and is frequently shamed on social media, because that's not what #metoo is about, it's about female victims and male victimizers.

There is literally no value whatsoever of saying “hey I never raped anybody”. Like what do they want, a cookie?

It has no space for people from the "perpetrator class" who have done nothing wrong, #metoo simply does not care about the demand for nuances they bring to the table and has instead decided to push them away in favor of a clean narrative.

What nuances do men who never raped someone demand? The nuance of feminists not saying every man has raped someone? Because I think you will find that nuance very firmly represented by women who are specifically accusing men who have hurt them.

A good man should not have to re-evaluate his behavior and position in society.

He should, he always should. Anyone with privilege and power should be constantly evaluating themselves to make sure they’re not exploiting and perpetuating it.

A good man is already secure in himself and also has the ability to tune out the shrill screams of protest that erupt with every new movement and see more clearly into the heart of the matter.

Yikes... what do you think the heart of the matter is here? Something other than men in power abusing it?

A good man can appreciate and identify the truth because a good man is already honest with himself and the world. A good man has never done the things the bad man has because a good man is always respectful of others.

Most certainly. And in that a good man should know how disrespectful it is to interrupt a motion towards progress by saying “but I never raped anybody” and expecting praise for it, or that it will in some way be regarded or acknowledged.

A good man weighs the evidence and never jumps to a conclusion of guilt or innocent no matter how popular the verdict may be.

Yes, evidence like a victim literally telling you about how she was raped.

A good man doesn't need an angry mob to show him what slime is, nor will a good man ignore the pleas of a true victim.

Nor will a good man pretend his oh-so-objective worldview is the only one able to identify a “true victim”. Nor will he ignore the accusations of people because they’re women. Nor will he side with someone accused of rape until the victim’s claims have been evaluated, at least.

Is that the man who needs to re-evaluate his behavior and position in society?

Yes, because this is the only way he can assure his goodness. Constant self-evaluation.

One last thing...a good man won't add his voice to a movement just for the sake of ratings.

What is this even about? What do you think ratings are? Who did something for the sake of ratings?

 

[Ryika]

I hope thanks to inthesomeday, LM now understands why men - and people in general really - generally do not want to be part of the metoo movement. That's exactly the responses they get when they try to participate, without already being browbeaten ideologues.

 

[warpus]

It does feel backwards to me to on one hand say: "Men need to be involved" and on the other hand treating all men as potential rapists who need to think long and hard about this every single day.

 

[Karpius]

He should, he always should. Anyone with privilege and power should be constantly evaluating themselves to make sure they’re not exploiting and perpetuating it.

I disagree. I don't have to evaluate who I am. I am quite secure in that. I do, however, think before I act and speak to avoid unintended offense or consequence.

Yikes... what do you think the heart of the matter is here? Something other than men in power abusing it?

At the heart of the matter is the exposure of bad people who have taken advantage of other people. A good man can see that and is NOT adversely affected by the screamers and can still hear the truth. Too often, when movements gain momentum, the passions run quite high which causes a rise in opposing passions (warranted or not). Those knee-jerk negative reactions are no better than the other, but reasonable people can see past all of that.

Most certainly. And in that a good man should know how disrespectful it is to interrupt a motion towards progress by saying “but I never raped anybody” and expecting praise for it, or that it will in some way be regarded or acknowledged.

I never sought any rewards for being who I am. I don't need to wear a badge for it or expect to be honored for it. However, I don't appreciate being automatically included among the bad men simply virtue of being a man. I don't like when a woman assumes I have no sympathy for someone who is assaulted or that I disbelieve them out of hand. I don't like being counted among the misogynists because i *do* want to hear both sides to *any* testimony. I was recently told that if I was not prepared to join the cause, then I was simply "a piece of trash like the rest." I was told that by a woman who was incensed because I wanted to know more about a situation before making a judgement of someone.

I have seen such bad actions firsthand. I have been involved in condemning such people. I have also defended the falsely accused and seen how bad that side of it can be.

Yes, evidence like a victim literally telling you about how she was raped.

All accusers deserve to be heard, as do all accused. I am not prepared to forgo due process no matter how heinous the crime.

Nor will a good man pretend his oh-so-objective worldview is the only one able to identify a “true victim”. Nor will he ignore the accusations of people because they’re women. Nor will he side with someone accused of rape until the victim’s claims have been evaluated, at least.

Would you prefer a subjective measure in such evaluations? Objectivity is the only measure I understand, despite the fact it is often inconvenient and may even go against my gut instincts. I never take *any* side until I have seen the available facts and heard from both parties. Unfortunately, people often make their judgements swiftly and based on the barest reports offered in the media. It goes both ways. Sometimes people will take the side of the popular athlete against that "lyin' *****", and sometimes they will side against the middle-aged power mogul because "it must be true!" Am I supposed to join either chorus based on the tidbits I get from the news? Or because advocates of either side tell 'how' I should view it? Or is it enough to acknowledge that the guilty in such crimes deserve swift and severe punishment no matter what the people say.

I won't be bullied into convicting the accused because of a popular movement, nor will I be bullied into dismissing the victim's accusations for similar reasons.

 

[inthesomeday]

I hope thanks to inthesomeday, LM now understands why men - and people in general really - generally do not want to be part of the metoo movement. That's exactly the responses they get when they try to participate, without already being browbeaten ideologues.

They don’t try to participate at all. Saying “I never raped anyone FEMINISM REKT” is, in fact, the opposite of constructive participation or discourse. We don’t give a damn about the input of men who aren’t victims because it’s a victim’s movement.

It does feel backwards to me to on one hand say: "Men need to be involved" and on the other hand treating all men as potential rapists who need to think long and hard about this every single day.

Nobody ever said men need to be involved. They need to self-crit but unless they are victims their input towards victims about how victims should compose themselves or put forward accusations is not welcome. Participate through support and solidarity, not inane and reactionary counterintuitivity.

I disagree. I don't have to evaluate who I am. I am quite secure in that. I do, however, think before I act and speak to avoid unintended offense or consequence.

That’s all that’s asked of you, that’s all I mean by self evaluation. Check yourself and make sure you’re not saying and doing sexist stuff.

At the heart of the matter is the exposure of bad people who have taken advantage of other people.

Exposing bad people isn’t it— also exposing bad systems. The system by which men gain power over women is as much at trial as the men themselves, as it rightfully should be.

A good man can see that and is NOT adversely affected by the screamers and can still hear the truth. Too often, when movements gain momentum, the passions run quite high which causes a rise in opposing passions (warranted or not). Those knee-jerk negative reactions are no better than the other, but reasonable people can see past all of that.

What exactly does this mean? Yes, it is a passionate struggle to overcome patriarchal programs by which sexual assault becomes possible. That’s a good thing.

I never sought any rewards for being who I am. I don't need to wear a badge for it or expect to be honored for it. However, I don't appreciate being automatically included among the bad men simply virtue of being a man.

And you aren’t, really; as you said, you evaluate what you say and how you behave. Of a man who hasn’t yet committed sexual assault that’s all that’s really asked of you. Men do indeed need to be conscious of their privilege and power and listen to victims, that’s the extent the average everyday man is indicted by the MeToo movement.

I don't like when a woman assumes I have no sympathy for someone who is assaulted or that I disbelieve them out of hand. I don't like being counted among the misogynists because i *do* want to hear both sides to *any* testimony. I was recently told that if I was not prepared to join the cause, then I was simply "a piece of trash like the rest." I was told that by a woman who was incensed because I wanted to know more about a situation before making a judgement of someone.

This is simply out of frustration. It shows mistrust in the victim to hear “both sides of the testimony”. There is only one side to a victim-oppressor relationship. If a kid told you his dad was beating him hopefully you wouldn’t listen to the dad about it?

I have seen such bad actions firsthand. I have been involved in condemning such people. I have also defended the falsely accused and seen how bad that side of it can be.

Anecdotal.

All accusers deserve to be heard, as do all accused. I am not prepared to forgo due process no matter how heinous the crime.

Due process in mainstream courts has consistently shown itself to be a thoroughly insufficient source of justice for these accusers, is the thing, and by ignoring their accusations you further empower their oppressors.

I won't be bullied into convicting the accused because of a popular movement, nor will I be bullied into dismissing the victim's accusations for similar reasons.

Sadly you are not in charge of criminal justice or the world would be a much better place, Mr. Objective. In the mean time we absolutely must listen to victims first and foremost, empower them, and lend them platforms, because their oppressors have for too long had a monopoly on that.

 

[warpus]

Nobody ever said men need to be involved.

I think it's possible you did not read the thread title and/or are unsure which thread you're in

 

[red_elk]

It shows mistrust in the victim to hear “both sides of the testimony”. There is only one side to a victim-oppressor relationship.

Justice system cannot be based on trust, it's nonsense. Evidence and testimony of both sides is absolutely required, otherwise the system will be abused.

 

[Ryika]

What does one even respond to inthesomeday? It's an RD thread, I want to respond with something of value, but then the things he says are so far out there, and he says it with the conviction of a class-A ideologue, that I'm not even sure how to engage. Or whether I _should_ engage to start with, maybe his position is just self-defeating and nothing needs to be said, like when a drunk guys rambles in the bus about the aliens that are controlling our brains.

 

[Azem.Ocram]

The #MeToo movement started out by exposing the worst offenders and ended up spiralling into a war against men. There are men who were mistreated by women worse than “Grace” was mistreated by Aziz but they voices are unwanted. There are a quite a few men mistreated by other men but anything short of rape is dismissed by women (and ocassionally a misandrist woman will dismiss that as well). Just like BLM has violent offenders and Pepe the Frog got coopted by the Alt-Right, #MeToo has its fair share of trolls and extremists. I had the misfortune of dealing with one myself on facebook. The only way I could get her to stop bullying was by threatening to expose her bullying on Reddit.

There are still stories that deserve to be heard but their voices are being drowned out by a toxic but highly vocal minority.

 

[inthesomeday]

What does one even respond to inthesomeday? It's an RD thread, I want to respond with something of value, but then the things he says are so far out there, and he says it with the conviction of a class-A ideologue, that I'm not even sure how to engage. Or whether I _should_ engage to start with, maybe his position is just self-defeating and nothing needs to be said, like when a drunk guys rambles in the bus about the aliens that are controlling our brains.

Describe my position, as you see it.

 

[Ryika]

Describe my position, as you see it.

Your position on what?

That due process is to be ignored in every day life because our courts can only go so far in generating justice for victims, before they risk becoming weapons of injustice themselves? That you think we should not use our brains to try to establish the truth of a claim and that it is better to just be religious minds and to listen and believe anything we hear from a specific class of people - women - with no valid recourse for the class they're accusing?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Most men I know are scared to marry the wrong person.

You get taken to the cleaners if you do, but you don't come out of it very clean.

Due process is important. For everyone. When there's actual harassment going on, it needs to be reported. When it's assault, there needs to be a police report, and as soon after it happens as possible. Assault allegations showing up *only* on social media and nowhere else should be major red flag to anybody rationally considering the situation. Harassment is less cut and dry because it's harder to pin down through legal processes admittedly.

I can understand how male actors, directors, etc. and others in the spotlight are probably sweating a bit though

Some fear accusation to the point of avoiding working relationships they'd otherwise have, and at this point that's a justifiable choice.

I have never been dogpiled over sexual harassment, but I have been dogpiled for "cheesing" and "breaking rules" in gaming, kicked out of a league outright. The fact of the matter is that I didn't break rules, but as soon as someone complained that I "cheesed" a couple people said "yeah, he ran the same play a lot". What play(s)? They didn't know. What rules did I break? "Anti-cheese" from running the allegedly same plays they couldn't identify. That was enough to draw out 4 accusations in a "metoo" fashion with 0 complaints prior, back in 2012 or somewhere in there. This behavior happened from random players with very little to gain from it (aside from maybe kicking a good player, a marginal benefit when player is off-division in a 32 person league), and public opinion was enough to overcome the observable fact that the post-game statistics displayed information supporting my side of the story. One of these players even claimed I "ran it a lot" while having more carries than me...ffs.

Now raise the stakes, throw in much greater incentive for both sides to lie, and we're supposed to believe that we're fine as long as we don't do anything wrong? Haha! No.

We don’t give a damn about the input of men who aren’t victims because it’s a victim’s movement.

Those punished in absence of due process are victims, and accusations alone have had serious repercussions before verification and even after in cases of false allegations.

This is simply out of frustration. It shows mistrust in the victim to hear “both sides of the testimony”. There is only one side to a victim-oppressor relationship. If a kid told you his dad was beating him hopefully you wouldn’t listen to the dad about it?

Yes, you investigate the cases for a reason. There are plenty of cases where it is demonstrably proven the kid lies about it. They are far less common than cases where the kid isn't lying, but if you ignore due process you throw parents in jail or separate them from children on the mere basis of accusation. In this case, they are very much the victim, not the kid. This happens, there are even documented cases of children self-harming to get parents in trouble. It's terrible stuff. I have zero respect...active disrespect for the notion of concluding a victim without evidence. Those parents have enough stress without being pegged as criminals. I don't care how comparatively rare they are.

Due process in mainstream courts has consistently shown itself to be a thoroughly insufficient source of justice for these accusers

This implies knowledge of real evidence I doubt you could provide.

 

[inthesomeday]

Your position on what?

That due process is to be ignored in every day life because our courts can only go so far in generating justice for victims, before they risk becoming weapons of injustice themselves?

That the courts already are weapons of injustice, and are not a trustworthy means of justice for the vast underclass which does include women.

That you think we should not use our brains to try to establish the truth of a claim and that it is better to just be religious minds and to listen and believe anything we hear from a specific class of people - women - with no valid recourse for the class they're accusing?

There is plenty of recourse available for men as is. They RUN the courts, dude. The problem with the way of thinking you’re touting is that it ignores the reality of today’s world. I wish more than anything that we could trust courts to prosecute sexists and rapists. But we cannot, so naturally if we want justice we have to make it ourselves.
That your worldview can’t recognize the institutional miscarriage of justice for women is your own problem.

Due process is important. For everyone.

I agree!

When there's actual harassment going on, it needs to be reported. When it's assault, there needs to be a police report, and as soon after it happens as possible. Assault allegations showing up *only* on social media and nowhere else should be major red flag to anybody rationally considering the situation. Harassment is less cut and dry because it's harder to pin down through legal processes admittedly.

Here’s your problem: you trust the “justice” system in place to prosecute rapists, especially powerful and wealthy ones. You fundamentally do not understand the experience of women going against more powerful men.

I don't care how comparatively rare they are.

Well, then, dude, that’s your problem, because it’s also a demonstrated fact that significantly more rapes go unreported or uninvestigated than go falsely accused.

This implies knowledge of real evidence I doubt you could provide.

Go read about how many rape kits go untested every year across the country. How many convictions fail to happen because of bias in the courts; go read about the “punishments” rapists more powerful than their victims have to go through.

It’s not my responsibility to educate you about your own privilege.

 

[Ryika]

That the courts already are weapons of injustice, and are not a trustworthy means of justice for the vast underclass which does include women.

There is plenty of recourse available for men as is. They RUN the courts, dude. The problem with the way of thinking you’re touting is that it ignores the reality of today’s world. I wish more than anything that we could trust courts to prosecute sexists and rapists. But we cannot, so naturally if we want justice we have to make it ourselves.
That your worldview can’t recognize the institutional miscarriage of justice for women is your own problem.

See, that's what I mean. I ask a question, and what I get back is a shotgun blast of incoherent nonsense right into my face.

I literally have no recourse other than make a dumb joke about it, because a discussion is predestined to not lead anywhere, given that what you wrote there is so detached from reality, Shyamalan could make a movie about it and people would praise him for being imaginative with his horror fantasies.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Here’s your problem: you trust the “justice” system in place to prosecute rapists, especially powerful and wealthy ones. You fundamentally do not understand the experience of women going against more powerful men.

I do not. I trust social media less.

Well, then, dude, that’s your problem, because it’s also a demonstrated fact that significantly more rapes go unreported or uninvestigated than go falsely accused.

That does not justify punishing falsely accused in any capacity. This isn't a small crime, there's not a lot worse aside from murder and arguably some extreme forms of torture. These need to be reported, to law enforcement, ASAP. Saying falsely accused should suffer as a response to reporting frequency problem is absurd.

It’s not my responsibility to educate you about your own privilege.

I know ducking responsibility is in vogue lately, but I didn't imply any. I'm just pointing out that what you're presenting is not coherent rationale in response to what I said.

There is plenty of recourse available for men as is. They RUN the courts, dude. The problem with the way of thinking you’re touting is that it ignores the reality of today’s world.

That's pretty ironic, considering you're essentially advocating to eschew evidence based convictions in favor of social media dogpiling people regardless of how much evidence exists against them.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

The #metoo movement seems to be for the most part dedicated to certain aspects of social media. I feel like I don't see 99.99% of it. In the first couple days I saw some of my friends post #metoo. It made me feel horrible for them. How many other friends, both male and female, went through something like this and are just too afraid to say anything? Some people will just not say anything because they will feel shame. Some will not say anything because it's just not easy to talk about. Some people will not say a thing because they feel others will judge them. A lot of men will stay quiet because society places certain expectations on them, and in this case it seems we're expected to stay quiet. I've had to deal with a minor case of sexual harassment, and I have not told a single person about it ever. There must be so many more people just not speaking out, and dealing with sexual harassment on a regular basis. As a decently sized and shaped man I feel like I'm fortunate enough in that most people just don't mess with me, so I have that going for myself. But a lot of people don't

So yeah, during the first couple days, I saw some stuff on social media here and there. But now for weeks I've heard nothing, aside from random articles about some big shot actor or director being accused of harassment. So if I had to guess the movement just seems to be sticking to parts of social media I usually don't frequent, so as a result I just don't see anything. Which seems like a shame, because to me at least it seems that the movement could be more effective and more inclusive

It does seem to be empowering some women to speak out, which is great. Maybe it will lead to more people reporting this stuff when it happens

Margaret Atwood was lambasted on social media because she brought up the reminder that conviction on social media is the wrong way to conclude these cases - due process, evidence, etc. are still necessary. That shocked some of the people who expected her to blindly go along with any accusation - since she's one of the most famous feminists in the country.

It isn't only actors and other Hollywood-types getting caught up in this. One of Trudeau's cabinet ministers resigned (Kent Hehr; there were multiple accusations). He hasn't resigned as an MP but I suspect that if he doesn't, he won't have much chance of being re-elected if he runs again in 2019.

 

[Arwon]

I always find it weird when people apply "due process" to like, their opinions of rape and assault allegations. You ain't a judge, and innocent until proven guilty is a procedural standard for conducting criminal justice. It's not a guideline for how you should form opinions.