Why shouldn't the US intervene in Syria?

[ReindeerThistle]

Meanwhile, the chemical weapons issue aside, the civil war in Syria continues unabated.

Both sides are apparently happily attacking each other's hospitals.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/09/12/attack-kills-11-syria-field-hospital

This is warfare, after all, and quite brutal.

I am not for or against Assad but I am also not in favor, in the 21st Century, of simply fueling regional conflicts. For weeks now, as I posted somewhere (maybe this thread) the CIA has been funneling arms, supplies and vehicles to one of the rebel groups, so it has really become a question of should the US continue to intervene in the Syrian Conflict.

I must also say that this has been quite an involved and volatile discussion -- four CFC threads and counting.

Sent via mobile.

 

[Borachio]

Well, should anyone continue intervening? I'm not an apologist for the US by any means. But they're not the only player in the region.

If Al Qaeda, Saudi Arabia, Hezebolah, Iran, Israel, and who knows else, continue to be involved, why shouldn't the US? And Russia?

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

I am not for or against Assad but I am also not in favor, in the 21st Century, of simply fueling regional conflicts. For weeks now, as I posted somewhere (maybe this thread) the CIA has been funneling arms, supplies and vehicles to one of the rebel groups, so it has really become a question of should the US continue to intervene in the Syrian Conflict.

It is in the US's interests to fuel regional conflicts though for the most part. The US primary objective outside the Western Hemisphere is to maintain the balance of power to the best of its ability in as many places as possible.

While the US has not always made the best moves doing this, what can you do...?

I must also say that this has been quite an involved and volatile discussion -- four CFC threads and counting.

I thought we were actually up to six or seven now.

EDIT: Just did a quick count, if you count all these, we have six at least.

Spoiler :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=508653
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=508337
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=507779
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=508930
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=508361
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=508457

 

[Borachio]

The trouble is: maintaining this balance costs people their lives.

Or maybe that's too strong. The danger is: maintaining this balance is liable to be costing more lives than some other policy.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

The trouble is: maintaining this balance costs people their lives.

Or maybe that's too strong. The danger is: maintaining this balance is liable to be costing more lives than some other policy.

The worry is that if a region were to be dominated by a power, that power could pose a threat to the US. The only example of a true rival in the US' history of being global hegemon is the Soviet Union.

The US does not want another Soviet Union, as the casualties of any war between two global powers could go well into the tens of millions (I would say hundreds, but precision munitions and all that, we'd see I guess). Nuclear or not.

 

[Cannae]

We shouldn't intervene. Assad is probably a despot but the rebels would probably end up being just as bad if they gained power. Furthermore, this has nothing to do with humanitarian rights. If our government and military really cared about those things, then we would have gone into Rwanda. Furthermore, we wouldn't have installed countless numbers of puppet leaders in various countries around the world. It's our eagerness to get involved in other nation's conflicts that makes people resentful of us.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

We shouldn't intervene. Assad is probably a despot but the rebels would probably end up being just as bad if they gained power. Furthermore, this has nothing to do with humanitarian rights. If our government and military really cared about those things, then we would have gone into Rwanda. Furthermore, we wouldn't have installed countless numbers of puppet leaders in various countries around the world. It's our eagerness to get involved in other nation's conflicts that makes people resentful of us.

Not necessarily our eagerness, it is our ability. The US is not the first great power and it will certainly not be the last. You know, haters gonna hate. All that.

You're correct. It has little to do with humanitarian rights.

You're also correct in saying it would be worse if the rebels got into power (probably anyways, we don't know).

Which is why Obama has avoided involvement so far to the best of his ability and is making it clear any involvement would be limited and would have little effect on the outcome of the war.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

The trouble is: maintaining this balance costs people their lives.

Or maybe that's too strong. The danger is: maintaining this balance is liable to be costing more lives than some other policy.

Just to add to my reply to this...Not to be the coldest man in the room, but are the lives of non-Americans important to the US government outside of politics? Not really.

 

[Labtec600]

Screw Syria and the rest of the middle east. Let them gas their own people. Let them make women cover 99% of their bodies and shoot any that want to pursue education. Let them pray and follow some fake God. Let them keep themselves in the middle ages. Let the world continue to advance while they live in poverty. It's not our problem. Fix our roads. Fix our education. Fix our healthcare system. Enough wasting money on the middle east. Take the billions of dollars we give them so we may get off of Oil and let the middle east worship their sand.

 

[Tahuti]

Screw Syria and the rest of the middle east. Let them gas their own people. Let them make women cover 99% of their bodies and shoot any that want to pursue education. Let them pray and follow some fake God. Let them keep themselves in the middle ages. Let the world continue to advance while they live in poverty. It's not our problem. Fix our roads. Fix our education. Fix our healthcare system. Enough wasting money on the middle east. Take the billions of dollars we give them so we may get off of Oil and let the middle east worship their sand.

Not sure whether that's sarcasm, or genuinely meant.

 

[Borachio]

Just to add to my reply to this...Not to be the coldest man in the room, but are the lives of non-Americans important to the US government outside of politics? Not really.

But you see, there's only one Earth.

There isn't really any us and them. Only us.

Which, of course, is going to seem a trite and trivial thing to say.

But the trite can often be true.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

But you see, there's only one Earth.

There isn't really any us and them. Only us.

Which, of course, is going to seem a trite and trivial thing to say.

But the trite can often be true.

Ok...?

 

[ReindeerThistle]

But you see, there's only one Earth.

There isn't really any us and them. Only us.

Which, of course, is going to seem a trite and trivial thing to say.

But the trite can often be true.

Borachio, you have a lot more in common with Reds than you think:

At the beginning of the month of June, a French magazine published a summary of the notes taken by Mr. Federico Mayor Zaragoza, former Director General of UNESCO, during a conversation with President Fidel Castro last January 28 while he visited Cuba to take part in the II International Economists Workshop held in Havana from the 24th to the 28th of that month.

Federico Mayor Zaragoza. - Is your opinion about the United Nations as severe?

Fidel: Not at all, although I consider its structure an anachronism. After 55 years of existence, it is essential to reestablish the organization. The United Nations should be worthy of its name: the members should be truly united by genuinely humane and far-reaching objectives. All of the member countries, big and small, developed and underdeveloped, should have the real possibility of making their voices heard. The UN should constitute a great meeting place, where all views can be expressed and discussed. It should operate on truly democratic bases. It is important for groups like the G-77 and the Movement of Non-Aligned Countries to act within the United Nations system.
The United Nations structure should be transformed, so that the organization can play a major role in today’s world. Social development, for example, is presently one of the most dramatically urgent needs in the Third World, and the mission of the World Bank is not to contribute funds to resolve financial crises but rather to promote social development. The absence of such development is the greatest tragedy of our times.

Federico Mayor Zaragoza.- Looking at a world map, what changes would you like to make?

Fidel: - I would be thinking of a world worthy of the human species, without hyper-wealthy and wasteful nations, on the one hand, and countless countries mired in extreme poverty, on the other; a world in which all identities and cultures were preserved, a world with justice and solidarity; a world without plundering, oppression or wars, where science and technology were at the service of humankind; a world where nature was protected and the great throng of people living on the planet today could survive, grow and enjoy the spiritual and material wealth that talent and labor could create.
No need to ask; I dream of a world that the capitalist philosophy will never make possible.

There is an "us" and "them," but it's not "The USA v. them." It is the people on conflict with the current world order.

Sent via mobile.

 

[Alassius]

Borachio, you have a lot more in common with Reds than you think:

Or Anglican clerics:

If a Clod bee washed away by the Sea,
Europe is the lesse

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Or Anglican clerics:

One of my favorite Reds was an Anglican cleric, God rest his soul.

And don't forget these immortal words from MY favorite Scottish Communist, Ewan MacColl:

Spoiler :

The Ballad Of The CarpenterBy Ewan MacColl

Jesus was a working man,
A hero as you shall hear.
Born in the slums of Bethlehem
At the turning of the year,
Yes, the turning of the year.

When Jesus was a little lad.
The streets rang with his name,
For he argued with the aldermen
And he put them all to shame.
Yes he...

He became a wandering journeyman
And he wandered far and wide,
And he saw how wealth and poverty
Lived always side by side,
Yes...

He said, "Come all you working men,
You farmers and weavers, too.
If you will only organize,
This world belongs to you,
Yes...

When the rich men heard what the carpenter had done,
To the Roman troops they ran.
Saying "Put this rebel Jesus down,
He's a menace to god and man,
Yes...

Jesus walked among the poor
For the poor were his own kind,
And they wouldn't let the cops get near enough
To take him from behind,
Yes...

So they hired one of the traitor's trade
And a stool-pigeon was he
And he sold his brother to the butcher's men
For a fistful of silver money.
Yes...

When Jesus lay in the prisoner's cell,
They beat him and offered him bribes
To desert the cause of his own dear folk
And work for the rich men's tribe,
Yes...

The commander of the occupying troops
He laughed and then he said,
"There's a cross to spare on Calvary Hill,
By the weekend he'll be dead,
Yes..

The sweat stood out upon his brow
And the blood was in his eye,
And they nailed his body to the Roman cross
And they laughed as they watched him die,
Yes..

Two thousand years have passed and gone,
And many a hero too,
But the dream of this poor carpenter
At last it is coming true,
Yes...

The (amateur) band I'm in sings this as part of our Christmas repertoire.

Sent via mobile.

 

[Borachio]

Borachio, you have a lot more in common with Reds than you think:

Except, of course, you immediately contradict it with an "there is an us and them".

As for what a capitalist philosophy is, I don't think I've ever heard of one. Is there such a thing?

Sent via hare mail. (A small furry animal.)

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

As for what a capitalist philosophy is, I don't think I've ever heard of one. Is there such a thing?

Sent via hare mail. (A small furry animal.)

Something or other about efficiency and having the total wealth be increased far more quickly than any other economic system.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Right, Borachio, there is no capitalist philosophy.

 

[Borachio]

Well, now I'm confused.

Is that sarcasm? If it isn't, why do you quote Castro as talking about capitalist philosophy?

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Yes, sarcasm. Sorry. This is the Chamber.

My beef with what the US does and is doing in Syria is based on what it does for one class over the others. My problem is the SYSTEM that creates and perpetuates false divisions in our society -- because workers in US, UK & al have far more in common with Syrian workers than we do with members of our own gov't. I think that both US and Russia's motives are dubious, however, the US' rhetoric and action put it on the moral LOW ground.

That is why I think we should not do military strikes and why those who I call socialist nations are advocating for the diplomatic solution, along with Russia (who I do not consider socialist, btw, who has seized the initiative.)