[RD] Why y'all always trying to defend Nazis?

[inthesomeday]

Just did a 30-second Google search. Apparently one guy named Robert Davis is the main historian people attribute this measurement to, about the Barbary slave trade, but that in reality he actually never really tried to quantify that claim in the book most folks attribute the claim to. Also, the structure and function of the Barbary slave trade as compared to the Transatlantic slave trade was significantly different. Will check your other claims in a second.

 

[luiz]

Problem is that you're justifying slavery by saying everyone did it, which justifies future slavery too.

Who's justifying slavery? Quote me when I justified anything.

But it's true that many civilizations did it, and Europeans were victims too, and Africans were oppressors too. To deny this is to falsify history. Something Nazis like to do.

I certainly justify no slavery.

 

[luiz]

Just did a 30-second Google search. Apparently one guy named Robert Davis is the main historian people attribute this measurement to, about the Barbary slave trade, but that in reality he actually never really tried to quantify that claim in the book most folks attribute the claim to. Also, the structure and function of the Barbary slave trade as compared to the Transatlantic slave trade was significantly different. Will check your other claims in a second.

The fact you obviously had barely heard of Barbary slavery, and never heard of ottoman slavery, is shocking to say the least.

But you should research more on Barbary slavery. 1 million is actually a conservative estimate. And obviously slaves were sold to die in galleys or mines, they were used as sex toys and exploited in the most inhuman ways. It was not any better than the transatlantic version, no matter what your dogma says.

 

[Senethro]

The fact you obviously had barely heard of Barbary slavery, and never heard of ottoman slavery, is shocking to say the least.

But you should research more on Barbary slavery. 1 million is actually a conservative estimate. And obviously slaves were sold to die in galleys or mines, they were used as sex toys and exploited in the most inhuman ways. It was not any better than the transatlantic version, no matter what your dogma says.

You're justifying the transatlantic version here. I think you're losing sight of your goals...

What do you actually mean when you say that everyone slaved. Your point is implied rather than explicitly made.

 

[inthesomeday]

But it's true that many civilizations did it, and Europeans were victims too, and Africans were oppressors too.

Tfw you hear your God-King say "violence on both sides" and you take it a bit out of hand

 

[inthesomeday]

The fact you obviously had barely heard of Barbary slavery, and never heard of ottoman slavery, is shocking to say the least.

But you should research more on Barbary slavery. 1 million is actually a conservative estimate. And obviously slaves were sold to die in galleys or mines, they were used as sex toys and exploited in the most inhuman ways. It was not any better than the transatlantic version, no matter what your dogma says.

Well apparently I can't find all the sources you must certainly have verified and fact-checked that made those statistical claims, so could you kindly link me?

 

[luiz]

You're justifying the transatlantic version here. I think you're losing sight of your goals...

What do you actually mean when you say that everyone slaved. Your point is implied rather than explicitly made.

OK, so when someone points out the evils of transatlantic slave trave does that mean that he is justifying Barbary and Ottoman slavery? I am pointing out that transatlantic slavery was not the only that existed, and until recently too. That doesn't mean I justify it.

I also say that the Holocaust was not the only genocide in history. Am o justifying it?

You have a very weird interpretation of what justifying means.

 

[luiz]

Well apparently I can't find all the sources you must certainly have verified and fact-checked that made those statistical claims, so could you kindly link me?

You didn't make an effort, did you?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

Slavery was massive in the Ottoman empire, and Europeans from the Balkans, Ukraine and Russia were among the biggest victims.

(waiting for you or one of you comrades to say that this was actually nice and progressive slavery, unlike the evil slavery of the evil Europeans)

 

[Senethro]

OK, so when someone points out the evils of transatlantic slave trave does that mean that he is justifying Barbary and Ottoman slavery? I am pointing out that transatlantic slavery was not the only that existed, and until recently too. That doesn't mean I justify it.

I also say that the Holocaust was not the only genocide in history. Am o justifying it?

You have a very weird interpretation of what justifying means.

You're dodging making your point explicit again. When something bad happens, pointing out that something else is bad is..... well, meaningless actually.

So what you're saying is apparently meaningless.

What do you want to mean?

 

[inthesomeday]

@luiz

Surely you're joking that I'd justify Ottoman slavery when I've repeatedly brought it up in this very thread??? And this source isn't what I was asking for, although it does provide a basis for your earlier claim that millions of Europeans were enslaved. I wanted a source saying that 1 million from the Barbary slave trade alone is a conservative estimate.

 

[luiz]

You're dodging making your point explicit again. When something bad happens, pointing out that something else is bad is..... well, meaningless actually.

So what you're saying is apparently meaningless.

What do you want to mean?

Dodging what? This subject begun because a poster clearly seemed to think that Arab / Ottoman conquest was somehow more enlightened than the European version. Other posters pointed out that Arabs and ottomans also enslaved, raped and pillaged. So actually the ones dodging the subject até the ones bringing up the transatlantic slave trade. Are you trying to justify Barbary and Ottoman slavery or what?

 

[Senethro]

Naw I'm saying all slaverys bad.

I'm just puzzled at you popping up in every thread and saying "THEY SLAVED TOO" as if in response.

You're making it a response. I want to know what you mean by that response.

 

[luiz]

@luiz

Surely you're joking that I'd justify Ottoman slavery when I've repeatedly brought it up in this very thread??? And this source isn't what I was asking for, although it does provide a basis for your earlier claim that millions of Europeans were enslaved. I wanted a source saying that 1 million from the Barbary slave trade alone is a conservative estimate.

So are you accepting the undisputed historical reality that millions of Europeans were enslaved by Africans and Ottomans. Good, that's progress? And I'm not being sarcastic. Good for you.

Naw I'm saying all slaverys bad.

I'm just puzzled at you popping up in every thread and saying "THEY SLAVED TOO" as if in response.

You're making it a response. I want to know what you mean by that response.

No, my position is that all slavery is bad, and that multiple civilizations engaged in it. Transatlantic slavery was one such case, and there's no justifying it. Just like there's no justifying Barbary or Ottoman slavery. There are some people who for ideological reasons like to pretend that only one of those slaveries happened, or only one was really evil. I'm opposed to that. That doesn't mean I think that one isn't evil too.

 

[inthesomeday]

I'm trying but my darn SJW echo box is running interference /s

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No, my position is that all slavery is bad, and that multiple civilizations engaged in it. Transatlantic slavery was one such case, and there's no justifying it. Just like there's no justifying Barbary or Ottoman slavery. There are some people who for ideological reasons like to pretend that only of thos slaveries happened, or only one was really evil. I'm opposed to that. That doesn't mean I think that one isn't evil too.

The problem is, I think, that you are perceived as trying to deny the consequences of more recent slavery in the way you routinely counter with examples that have long since been redressed or are at least beyond any means of redress. Slavery in the US led directly to segregation in the US, which created repressed communities that still exist today that have never been able to catch up.

So, yeah, we get it. The poor picked on Europeans only got the good end of the stick over the last few centuries and they did some time in the barrel too. What of it?

 

[luiz]

The problem is, I think, that you are perceived as trying to deny the consequences of more recent slavery in the way you routinely counter with examples that have long since been redressed or are at least beyond any means of redress. Slavery in the US led directly to segregation in the US, which created repressed communities that still exist today that have never been able to catch up.

So, yeah, we get it. The poor picked on Europeans only got the good end of the stick over the last few centuries and they did some time in the barrel too. What of it?

Barbary slavery persisted until the 19th century, meaning that it ended about the same time as transatlantic slave trade. It's only "more ancient" in your imagination. Also, what do you mean "has long been redressed"? I don't remember the North Africans paying réparations to the victims of their slavery, nor the Ottomans. And the effects of Barbary slavery are actually visible until today, when you look at the settlement patterns of villages in the Mediterranean.

But I'm all for focusing on current problems. By all means, address the issue of struggling communities in the US. Do fight segregation. I'm all for it.

But let's not pretend slavery only happened in the Americas, or that Europeans were not victimized by it until modern times as well. Let's not pretend history is a one sided narrative with white oppressors and non white victims. Humans have always done horrible stuff to each other, of all colors and against all colors. Let's accept that and move on. And hopefully stop doing horrible things.

 

[Traitorfish]

I also say that the Holocaust was not the only genocide in history. Am o justifying it?

Humans have always done horrible stuff to each other, of all colors and against all colors. Let's accept that and move on.

Presented without comment.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Barbary slavery persisted until the 19th century, meaning that it ended about the same time as transatlantic slave trade. It's only "more ancient" in your imagination. Also, what do you mean "has long been redressed"? I don't remember the North Africans paying réparations to the victims of their slavery, nor the Ottomans. And the effects of Barbary slavery are actually visible until today, when you look at the settlement patterns of villages in the Mediterranean.

But I'm all for focusing on current problems. By all means, address the issue of struggling communities in the US. Do fight segregation. I'm all for it.

But let's not pretend slavery only happened in the Americas, or that Europeans were not victimized by it until modern times as well. Let's not pretend history is a one sided narrative with white oppressors and non white victims. Humans have always done horrible stuff to each other, of all colors and against all colors. Let's accept that and move on. And hopefully stop doing horrible things.

Note that you left out "or are at least beyond any means of redressing."

I'm not talking about settlement patterns of villages. I'm talking about the fact that people my age who I personally know grew up in a redline district that was redlined with the tacit consent of my own parents. So, yeah, "in the 19th century" is, in fact, ancient by comparison. And it isn't about reparations, it's just about not standing around like some oblivious innocent and arrogantly asking them what's wrong with them that they managed to 'get themselves' left behind.

 

[luiz]

Note that you left out "or are at least beyond any means of redressing."

I'm not talking about settlement patterns of villages. I'm talking about the fact that people my age who I personally know grew up in a redline district that was redlined with the tacit consent of my own parents. So, yeah, "in the 19th century" is, in fact, ancient by comparison. And it isn't about reparations, it's just about not standing around like some oblivious innocent and arrogantly asking them what's wrong with them that they managed to 'get themselves' left behind.

I don't think anyone wants to get left behind on purpose. I'm all for helping struggling communities, struggling individuals. Personally I don't care if they're struggling because their ancestors were enslaved and segregated, or if they're struggling because their parents were drug addicts who blew everything, or whatever. It's not their fault anyway, and one isn't less deserving than the other.

Let's help those who need help, let's not waste time and resources on those who don't. Let's treat people as individuals. How controversial is this?

Presented without comment.

I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make. If you think I'm justifying the holocaust, say it to my face like a man.

 

[inthesomeday]

I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make. If you think I'm justifying the holocaust, say it to my face like a man.

Mmm there's that fresh misogyny